Difference Makers Podcast
We created this podcast in order to celebrate the lives and work of people who have transformed communities, businesses, and the wider world, making a real difference in the lives of others. We call them "Difference Makers". Some overcame great personal adversity in their journey. They all showed the knowledge, perspective, skills and capabilities to lead, to achieve, and to make real change when it is needed most. Oh, and by the way... they are all Chartered Accountants!
Find out more at https://www.charteredaccountantsworldwide.com
Difference Makers Podcast
Global Challenges and the Drive for Sustainability with Carmine Di Noia (Director for Financial and Enterprise Affairs at the OECD)
In this special episode of Difference Makers Discuss Ainslie Van Onselen, Chair Chartered Accountants Worldwide & CEO CA ANZ, meets Carmine Di Noia, Director for Financial and Enterprise Affairs at the OECD.
In this conversation Carmine sheds light on how finance professionals can tackle critical issues like the climate crisis and digital transformation, ultimately shaping cleaner, stronger economies. We explore the OECD's mission and its collaborations with the G20 and IMF, aiming to promote sustainable development and social equity.
Our conversation takes a deep dive into the evolving corporate governance landscape, where digitalization and ESG principles are reshaping business practices. Discover the role of accountants amidst changing standards and the significance of responsible business conduct, especially in light of geopolitical tensions. Carmine shares insights on the OECD's initiatives to enhance ethics and transparency and discusses how multinational efforts are aligning global sustainability standards.
The spotlight turns to gender diversity in corporate governance, with a focus on Italy's effective board composition quotas. Carmine discusses how diversity influences board dynamics and the power of data in driving progress. We delve into broader aspects of discrimination and the collective actions required for an equitable world.
Tune in for Carmine's advice to young CEOs, emphasizing curiosity and varied experiences as keys to thriving in today's economic environment.
Hello and welcome to a special edition of Difference Makers Discuss Live, where we explore the intersection of global policy, economic challenges and leadership in shaping a better, more sustainable future. I'm Ainsley van Odselen, chair of Chartered Accountants Worldwide and CEO of Chartered Accountants Australia and New Zealand. Today, we are honoured to have Camino de Noia, director for Financial and Enterprise Affairs from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, the OECD. The OECD plays a pivotal role in fostering international cooperation to build stronger, more inclusive economies. As a leader in global policymaking, the OECD oversees initiatives that aim to promote sustainable development, ensure social equity and guide the digital transformation of the global economy. Ensure social equity and guide the digital transformation of the global economy.
Speaker 1:In today's episode, we will discuss the critical challenges facing the global economy, from the climate crisis to digital transformation, and explore how the chartered accountancy and wider finance profession can contribute to creating solutions that support the OECD's mission for stronger, cleaner economies worldwide. Join us as we explore how finance professionals can lead by example in navigating these complex global challenges. So welcome, kamina. It's absolutely fantastic to have you here today. You have somewhat of an intimidating CV, but a very, very illustrious career, and so I thought I'd share for those online. Just a little bit of your biography if you don't mind. Correct me if I'm wrong on anything but Camina, from 2016, was the Commissioner of the Italian Securities and Securities Exchange Commission. Has a PhD in economics at the University of Pennsylvania and a doctorate in economic theory. Is a full professor currently in financial markets and banking at the Business School of University of.
Speaker 1:Only Only oh, okay, okay, at the Lewis University in Rome, thank you. Sits on numerous boards and committees, as you would expect, but some of those include being an alternate board member on IOSCO, a board of supervisor at the European Securities and Markets Authority, so ESMA, and is also vice chair of the OECD's Corporate Governance Committee, which will be particularly relevant to our discussion today. But, camilla, perhaps, if I can just start with, what does your role entail? So it's Director of Financial and Enterprise Affairs at OECD. Perhaps let us let our listeners know what that actually. What does that mean from a day-to-day's wisdom?
Speaker 2:Yeah, our Director, director for Financial Enterprise Affairs, duff, is a large directorate at the OECD. I think it's the second largest in terms of substantive directorate, around 270 people, and we are OECD, I mean, is a member-driven organization of 38 countries. Now we are in the accession phase for eight other countries important for economic cooperation and development. So we work basically with standards. So OECD is a standard setter and actually our directorate is serving as secretariat to a large number of bodies, committees, that sets standards, and some of them, I think, are also close to those who are listening to this exchange of views.
Speaker 1:The accounting profession.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I'm also an accountant, by the way.
Speaker 1:Oh good. Okay, I should have added that to the board.
Speaker 2:And some of that. So we deal basically with, I would say, six main areas. One area is financial market at large, so I would say supply, demand, the institutional framework, so corporate governance, corporate finance at large. So I would say supply, demand, the institutional framework, so corporate governance, corporate finance, but also insurance and pensions. But then financial consumer protection, financial inclusion, financial education and financial literacy, which is quite important. State-owned enterprise, talking about corporate governance.
Speaker 2:Then there is a big area which is investment and infrastructure, dealing with a capital movement, the treaties, so-called. We work with the IMF on that foreign direct investment and infrastructure. Then there is a big area, also relevant, I think, for us, which is a Responsive Business Conduct. And then there is an important division in my directorate and there is an important standard there which is the MNE, the Multi-Asian Enterprise Guidelines for Responsible Business Conduct. Then we have an important old theory which is anti-corruption, which is also you know, they're all linked to our topics. There is a lot of coordination we try to have. This is a division serving as the secretariat for an important committee called the Working Group on Bribery, but dealing with a standard which is one of the most powerful standards at the OECD because it's an international legal convention, the Convention on Foreign Bribery. So this is a binding yes.
Speaker 2:And then we have competition and antitrust. So basically also an important division, important standards, or basically also an important division, important standards. We perform these activities through committees where the representatives of the 38 countries are sitting at the public authority of those countries, but not only so. Depending on the committee, we may have, as I told you, we are 38 plus the European Union countries, but then we are in the accession phase for some of them, but in the committees, in some of them, we may have already other countries. So, for example, the G20 OECD principles of corporate governance, one of the most you know relevant standard is also the only OECD standard which, which is a standard for the FSB, the Financial Stability Board, is a standard for Keystone Financial Systems. This is a G20 OECD. So also all the G20 non-OECD countries are sitting at the table. So China, India, South Africa, Saudi Arabia, then Brazil, Argentina, Indonesia, for example. We are also an accession country. Or in the investment committee, we have many other UNO members. So it's a variable geometry. I would say this is quite interesting because, in a sense, many countries they do decide to join a committee so to abide by these standards, even if they are not, or not yet, necessarily a full OECD members. They are, I would say, all in a sense linked.
Speaker 2:Also, we work within the OECD very much coordinated with many other directorates, with environment, for all the debate, discuss sustainability with the ECO, the ECO department. We work a lot on financial markets issues, debt and others, or with our employment and labor. We work a lot on pension systems, debt and others, or with our employment and labor. We work a lot on pension systems. We work on pension funds. They work on much broader. So it's our trade, all the colleagues, development, all the colleagues. We work all together. And we work together because obviously the challenges that we're having in this I would say also recently, the evolution of the economy, but also the geopolitical challenges we're having, also health, you know, after COVID, this is, I think, that's why we try also to update standards. This week we're having we had recently update of important standards. Why we update standards Exactly to, To have consistency, reliability, etc.
Speaker 2:Yes, and to tackle, you know, the new development you're having in the market, financial markets, in the economy, so it's important. This is also our Secretary General, who is Matthias Korman, who says that, ok, it's important to be a standard setter, but only if the standards are, you know, they remain relevant if they are updated. But this is the necessary but not sufficient condition. Then they need to be implemented and monitored.
Speaker 1:Yes, which is the activity also we are doing on these committees. I mean, the accounting profession is really interested in that monitoring component because some of the standards are relatively profession agnostic but as a professional accounting body we have the conduct discipline monitoring systems in place that complement the relevant regulators. But you touched on some of the macroeconomic trends that we're seeing in the world today. So geopolitical issues, inflationary pressures, cost of living, for example, a key issue in the US election, of course and also rising inequality For business leaders. What do you think are the top three priorities for business leaders on those macroeconomic trends, if you like?
Speaker 2:One thing I would say in general, these changes we're having in the environment are, you know, we need to tackle them from our point of view the director of financial enterprise affairs, in trying to have easier access to finance, for example, which you know, because, other things being equal, this makes, you know, companies, you know, growing more resilient also to shocks. But this is fundamental and on this we work with our standards, again, the corporate governance, but also many guidelines, and so with other colleagues also in the SME space. So this is essential because if you have resilient companies, then you have resilient economy. Okay, and this is the creation of jobs and growth. Then, okay, everyone is talking about the twin transition, so digitalization and then ESG, low carbon economy. This is something which is quite relevant. And again, our standards and the update of the standards, the corporate governance principles. I would say the largest, the most important change in the structure of the principle is to have this new article 6 on sustainability and resilience in terms of how, of disclosure, in terms of also how a board and so also, you know, all the committees, also, you know all the controlling mechanisms should tackle, really, you know, sustainability issues and then also the engagement of which role and stakeholders. This is also very important. But then also why we update standards and we implement them more. Because, again, to manage all these changes, this geopolitical tension that obviously are affecting a lot the work of cooperation, in a sense that, in a sense that the priority is very much linked.
Speaker 2:Think about the new structure, I would say, of the economies that we are having, for example, many, many groups. So typically a company is a company within a control company and typically it's not in the same country, it's a multinational. There are so supply chain and there are value chains. So I think we say responsible business conduct and good corporate governance in a system where also controls, the system of checks and balances, and so the role of accountants is essential, is more and more challenging and is essential, and I would say so now maybe I put the headers and accountants but obviously it's evolving and improving.
Speaker 2:Why? Because it's not maybe the traditional verification of accounts, financial standards, yeah, which in any case is evolving, all the work that, let's say FRS we have a new international standards but also I'm thinking of the work that, let's say FRS you know we have a new international standards but also thinking of the work another accounting standard, but on sustainability standards, the work of ISSB, and then in different regional areas we're having different standards. So this is, I think, the evolution and that's why we need and we like, when we discuss these standards, not only we discuss in the public domain, with you know, members, but have public consultation. We have been also interacting with accountants a lot in, for example, corporate governance in SOE, so this is, for us, an essential part.
Speaker 1:So one of the key priorities for us at Chartered Accountants Worldwide so we're a network of 1.6, sorry, 1.8 million accountants representing 16 chartered accounting bodies and one of the priorities for us is really that capacity building and consistency of how to apply the standards educate our members so that they can not only apply the accounting standards but in particular, for example, the sustainability standards that have now been issued globally and also, obviously, the EU have adopted as well and Australia has adopted, for example.
Speaker 1:So that's a really big priority for us is to uplift our profession to be able to do something that perhaps wasn't normally in their wheelhouse that dealing with sort of grey kind of metrics. So financials, you know the numbers are the numbers right, and now, for example, in Australia, the financial statement auditor is now going to have to be the auditor for climate disclosures. So that's a very key part of what we're doing is trying to upskill or uplift the capacity of accountants globally in our network to be able to meet that challenge, because I think it's a huge opportunity for the profession In terms of OECD. In that context, with sustainability reporting, sustainability finance you mentioned is a key issue. How are you, particularly with your role as the Vice Chair of the Corporate Governance Committee of OECD.
Speaker 2:This was a role I had. Oh, okay, so now we are serving as secretary. When I was commissioner of the Italian ASIC, I was, in that capacity, deputy chair of the committee for six years, which then in a sense I exchanged in a sense role, because then I am not anymore the chair of the committee but I'm the director of the secretariat to the committee. But we work very much on that.
Speaker 1:So how does the OECD promote ethics and integrity in the business community and the accounting profession to that extent as well? How can they support the OECD in that mission to ensure transparency, consistency of reporting and the like?
Speaker 2:I would say that, first of all, we are uh, and we try to be more and more, an evidence-based organization. So, having you know uh, there was a famous uh you know us uh lawyer, luis brandazzo. Sunlight is the best of dysentery.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, I love that line.
Speaker 2:So you need information, data, evidence and good analysis. Okay, this is, I think, the necessary but not sufficient condition, but also with appropriate information, because others were also saying that too much sunlight can cause cancer. It should flood the market with information and this is the problem that sometimes also accountants they do have. Sometimes it's possible that you. So you need appropriate information, appropriate disclosure In terms of analysis, talking about this issue. So we have been, for example, last year we issued this year actually 2024, this report on all 2024, this basically a report on all you know, sustainability disclosure by all corporates. We have this database 40,000 companies that focus on 10,000. So, showing how companies make you know sustainability disclosure scope one, scope two, scope three this was on Financial Summit in 2022, because we published basically when it was in March, so we hadn't already in 2023.
Speaker 2:But, in a sense, why it's important. There is a lot of disclosure around, but maybe the comparability is not yet there. There is a lot of disclosure, especially of big companies. Maybe also there's an issue, maybe of flexibility and proportionality of standards, but this is, in a, a sense, year zero, so year before then the entry into force of international standards. So we are working on the new edition, and this is, for example, something that can be then quite interesting and relevant. We work. We had a good paper on net zero transition for financial companies banks insurers asset managers financial companies, banks, insurers, asset managers.
Speaker 1:Probably we'll put that paper in our comms for this podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we have, for example, also interestingly in this area, obviously there is a lot of interest for sustainable finance. We have published this year this global debt report report is really on bonds sovereign and corporate bonds. We then the analysis is the focus on sustainable bonds, whatever they are. There is a lot of greenwashing around, but it's interesting that it's still on the back of the envelope. We have a hundred trillion market of bonds, both public and private. Sustainable bonds is is basically for treatment, but this is really, you know, increasing a lot and there is a lot of interest on supply and demand. There is still a lot of uh, not full, uh, you know, maybe understanding of these instruments. Also, when you issue these instruments, um, okay, but but it's important that we have an increasing, you know, awareness. That's why we work on a lot of also infrastructure, sustainable infrastructure, infrastructure for sustainability, the work on insurance for catastrophes.
Speaker 2:We have seen and actually deep thought to the population in Spain in this moment. But how you know, climate, extreme events now can happen, even the opposite events. So you know extreme, you know dry and extreme and flooding can even happen in the same area in different moments. So this is something that it's. It's really very, very important. So this is, I would say, one thing, so the basis. But then you're asking what we're doing, what we can do here, the era. By the way, we were called to collaborate with Aiesba and also a former chair of the Deputy Chair of the Corporate Governance Committee is Gabriela Figueiredo.
Speaker 1:Yes, I've met Gabriela. She was in Australia recently.
Speaker 2:And we meet her tomorrow. I guess she's coming here. She's a close friend because she was the chair also of the Portuguese Commission and she was deputy chair with me of the Corporate Governance Committee. So we we hosted him, we collaborated, he's in lunches in Australia, every single year, oh, and we collaborated a lot.
Speaker 2:We have also spoken at different events and the other way around. So it is important, this collaboration, because again, this is complementary and I think again it's to raise awareness. I've always been committed. I worked a lot in Italy before, in other capacity also before being commissioner, on co-programming, on self-regulation. I was strongly convinced that if people do understand that a certain behavior is okay, is fair, you have to do it because you really think that it's good. It's much better than if you behave in a certain way just because you you are afraid of the sanction or yes, so that's a principle based ethic, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And then this is a you know, the root also of also ethical behavior, the principles, have to say. Yesterday we had here a nice seminar on the future of corporate governance with gurus coming from from the us and and we discuss all these ethical parts and also for board members and for all the system of checking and balances. This is quite an issue. So we also do a lot of vertical on countries or capacity building and we do our capital market reviews, which we did for Italy, now we're doing for Spain, for Philippines and others. But they are really encompassing a set of, I would say, holistic recommendation which I think include also, you know how, the appropriate, uh, um, uh level of, you know, awareness capacity of the different bodies in in corporations but as well as in in a public authority. So we need people who are competent and also with appropriate, you know behavior. So we say this is also another dimension. We we try also to keep also governments you know they are our shareholder aware of the necessity to always evolve and be present in this area, obviously, obviously.
Speaker 2:Then there are the extreme, let's say weapons. So the anti-corruption, again, the legal convention, yeah, oecd also, fatf is a body that is at the OECD, but so when we do the monitoring of countries for the convention on foreign bribery, the legal convention, then it's really the monitoring which, for the the convention on foreign bribery, the legal convention, then is really the monitoring which is in different steps, is uh, is really on the functioning of the judicial system as a whole, but also you know all the different rules and bodies. So this is quite important. It ends up with a public report, with a public press release, and country do take this into into account. Obviously we need also an appropriate and efficient system of sanctions. Then I think that the optimal market is where the sanctions exist but are not then applied because people do behave correctly, because they think, not only because they fear they're afraid, but also they think that it's in the interest of everyone to have a good behavior.
Speaker 1:So, camille, I might just that you used the phrase sunlight everyone to have a good behaviour. So, kamil, I might just that you used the phrase sunlight is the best disinfectant, and that's a phrase I've used actually with our membership body in the context of gender equality in the profession women in leadership, gender pay gap, things like that. That transparency, consistent, reportable data as well, is your friend in terms of what actually is the statistics in terms of gender pay inequality, for example. What is the OECD doing in terms of supporting women in leadership, promoting, you know, sort of gender equality within the business community in particular? Are you able to take me through some of the initiatives that the OECD is doing in that?
Speaker 2:context. Thank you. I mean this is a very good you know, I mean very important topic, I would say, within the OECD and also for what we do for outside In terms of, let's say, corporate governance principles. They do tackle the issue of gender diversity. Not only we respect the board composition, which is very important, it's very also as a symbolic value, but you will not solve discrimination, gender discrimination, with some hundreds or dozens of people in the world. But this is important and when we revise the principle because again, we are evidence-based, we have a quite, I would say, updated paper because it's 2023, with all the situation in all, not only OECD markets but also others, we'd expect the different way you can tackle this.
Speaker 2:I'm coming from a country, italy, which is one of the few that put binding quotas in the law. It was also, I think, done with striking the right balance, so with the entry into force of the law at the beginning, after the expiration of the boards, just not to jump into the composition of the incumbents. Also different quotas, so starting with 20%, going to one third and then now to 40% is also a law, like in many other countries. It's not particularly rocket science, but we share this also, which in theory has an expiration, also to solve possible issues of constitutional rules on equality. So and then I think of the effect this is my thing has been very important. It's been very important not only for for the presence, obviously, of women, but also for, you know, the change I would say in the composition, in the mentality of boards, also in the refreshing boards which in our case were quite the old male club, also very much connected.
Speaker 1:So I've read that report and I would really recommend it to our listeners. It is terrific. I've actually even recommended it to my daughter for a high school project. It is brilliant. And if you're able to look at your profession or look at your firm, look at your industry and compare the OECD average, so the OECD is collating this data has for a very long time in terms of the gender pay gap in respective countries. But you can do and using the OECD's calculational formula for gender pay gap, you can use that for your industry, for your business, for your firm, et cetera. But it also that report particularly goes into some great detail in terms of what you can do to reduce or narrow the gap. In particular, there's a lot of really good tips to reduce or narrow the gap in particular.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of really good tips. Yeah, obviously, to talk about gender gap. You need that. Then you have more participation of women in work, which I think is still a prerequisite in many countries in many sectors at different levels. So that's why, even in the principles we deal not only and the recommendation is not only for boards, but also you need top management, but also we are obsessed by this. So we see even the effect of foreign direct investment on gender. You know, diverse. So I think we should tackle again holistically and also we try to also give the good example. You know, inside. I think we also at the OECD, secretary Jay is very proud that we also at the OECD also Secretary of the General is very proud that we have at the top level, 50%, 50-50, and then you may have issues around even the number of top positions, but then, but also in our directorate, is the same. We have improved, you know, quite a lot. We have improved quite a lot. We have different initiatives for patented issues, improving.
Speaker 2:Then I have to say that obviously diversity is not only then a gender issue but there are many dimensions which you shouldn't underestimate, or sometimes, in some cases, this is a flag to hide even many other discriminations. So we should be also tackling all of them. But again, I think data and the different standards, even the reason we presented last week with the Secretary General, presented the new state-owned enterprise guidance, also Copper Garden, and also they basically are updated also for the new Copper Garden space, but also this is an issue generally. So we can always, we need a collective effort, I think, to tackle this issue, but I think honestly, I mean I've seen a very important evolution in not only the debate but in what's happening in reality. So then, I'm from a country with a prime minister woman.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, I think the United Nations rapporteur for women empowerment, elizabeth Boderich, is a former human rights commissioner in Australia. She has a great line, which is what gets measured matters, and it's in that context that the OECD's data, that it publishes and produces and so that you have those historical records, is so important because it really sets, I guess, the tone for other countries to say, okay, well, if I think economically I'm as good as that country, or I want, want to aspire to be as affluent and as influential as that country, then looking at things like the gender pay gap and how they appear and how that correlates to their economic success is so important.
Speaker 2:Numbers is important, because I'm coming from this kind of experience also to improve again different ages ago. But then when you have the numbers and you have peer pressure, it's better. You say, okay, but the others are doing it like this, it's not again imposition. I think the bottom-up is much better than top-down in many instances.
Speaker 1:Now you mentioned early in the podcast that you're an accountant and I missed that in your bio, so we'll have many young listeners listening in and so, in terms of your career and what you've seen, looking at the economic climate that we're facing and some of the challenges that we're facing as well globally, what advice would you give to a young CEO coming through the ranks?
Speaker 2:Okay, I could say a general thing, which is curiosity. So I'm a strange animal. I'm an economist, in theory, pure economist, but then many people think I'm a lawyer. They call me avvocato di noia, they, and I think I actually got my degree at university in rome in business economics. So that's why and I I didn't want to specialize at the beginning in, let's say, pure economics, or really all that was this juridical, let's say, field, and then after that. So I took the exam for account at that time you could take without a practicing.
Speaker 2:Now you need a couple of years of practice you make a practical experience and then I think it's very important because obviously for me it's something that remains you can more easily read numbers of corporates. Then I had different kinds of experiences than being also a supervisor of listed companies, both as an officer at the Securities Commission, then also as a commissioner. Then I work in an association of companies, so I think. But then so having an interdisciplinary approach is very important, so not being only focused. You know one area, so okay. But then and then you see that this is what you need, even in this profession, because all the updated now you have to do for all the sustainability part, because all the would it be integrated reporting for all the sustainability part, because all the would it be integrated reporting would be the different kind of. Uh, we have different experiences all over the world. By the way, the market is not anymore the national market for all of you, so you will.
Speaker 2:You will probably get a job, not in your country or in a company, in any case in a group, so you need to be really open. Luckily we have international standards around which could like usd, but in terms of accounting standards, obviously they are missing. All that ifrs foundation and all the and the issb and ifrs. I'm in the ifrs advisory council also. We're having a meeting next week, so also I refresh on my memory of these issues.
Speaker 2:And no, I think it's important to be really interdisciplinary, because the evolution that we're having in okay, in rules, regulation, but also in the economy as a whole, is broad. So always again, be curious, be eager, be hungry to, always to learn. I'm 58. I'm happy to be here because I'm learning new things and I'm so happy to do that. And then you know, now it's completely also bigger to, I think, change job, change position. I think mobility is essential also in your growth, your growth of human capital and I think also of salary. But it's better. I think it's not anymore the timing of being in the same position, also maybe as an accountant, but moving would be in a company or also as an advisor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, people are moving jobs.
Speaker 2:This is honestly very relevant, then if you want to come to the UCD, we have a lot of vacancies. Check our website, and accountants are very much welcome here.
Speaker 1:That's terrific. Well, thank you so much. I think the emphasis that you had on the value of curiosity is just so critical. I think in today's world, particularly with, I guess, with AI and generative AI, making specializations kind of less a focus and it's more the breadth that you need. So that interdisciplinary or multidisciplinary approach I think is going to be absolutely critical. So that's fantastic insight. So I think thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2:This was a real interview, not with Chachi Bittier.
Speaker 1:That's right. No, exactly, this is real humans, real humans. But thank you, thank you for your service to the global community. Uh, what the osed does in terms of promoting uh, economic prosperity and equity, I think is a really uh really terrific, um and absolutely critical, important factor for the world's economy. So, thank you, yeah we hope to.
Speaker 2:I mean we, we try to do our best. You, our motto is better policies for better lives, and so I mean maybe we are dreamers but we really think that we can give a contribution, a small contribution to, you know, to the growth to try to tackle inequalities and all diversities. And I think I mean I can testify, I mean I was already working and in contact with you. I think we are, we focus on our fast but I think we focus on our job, but I think we are really. I mean we hope, and then also with the collaboration, with also contact and interaction with all of you, including, you know, all the camp.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much. Thank you and to our viewers online, thank you for tuning into this special edition of Difference Makers Discussed Live.
