Nick Riemer, Embracing AI and Tech in Financial Careers

Online exams are meant to make learning easier, but most proctoring tools still assume perfect Wi‑Fi, constant power, and a pricey laptop. That leaves too many students behind. We sit down with Nick Riemer, a South African chartered accountant and co-founder of Invigilator App, to unpack how an offline-capable, low-data approach to remote invigilation can protect academic integrity while widening access to education. 

We talk about the real costs of traditional assessment: venues, staffing, printing, logistics, and the knock-on costs students pay in travel and accommodation. Nick explains how credible online assessments can cut fixed costs, help institutions accept more learners, and make studying possible from wherever you are, without reducing the value of the final qualification. We also explore how the business scaled from a South Africa-first focus to global roll-outs, including work across the UK, Australia, and beyond, guided by the principle of proving product-market fit before expanding. 

AI is the other big thread, and we go beyond headlines. Nick breaks down how on-device AI can reduce massive uploads by focusing attention on the moments that matter, while still keeping a human academic as the final decision-maker to avoid false flags and protect due process. We also get into responsible use of tools like ChatGPT: when closed-book exams still matter, when AI can be allowed, and how assessment design should reward real critical thinking rather than copy-paste answers. We close with a candid look at entrepreneurship, profitability, and why chartered accountancy skills can be a serious advantage when building trust with investors. 

If you care about inclusive education technology, ethical AI in education, and the future of assessments, listen now. Subscribe, share with a friend in education or edtech, and leave a review with your take: should AI be welcomed into learning, or tightly limited?

Transcript

Sinead Donovan 0:12

Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening to wherever you may be watching this episode of Difference Makers Discuss. I am joined today with a second header because you have met this charged accountant before. You have met Nick Riemer in when he was a young Difference Makers Discuss back in 2022. And we are revisiting Nick, who's a member of our South African institute, a charged accountant. And we're revisiting Nick because he has grown to heady heights with the firm that he co-founded back in 2020, Invigilator App. And it is so topical now, given the online assessments that we're seeing throughout the throughout the world. And Nick has really scaled the company to a great height. So I want to dig into that with Nick. Nick, you're very welcome. And thank you again for joining us on Difference Makers Discuss. I think I'm right in saying it was back in 2022 when you were a young difference maker and one of the attended the Young Worm the One Young World Conference, is that right? I'll hand over to you now to fill in the gaps.

Nick Riemer 1:23

Cool. No, thanks, Sinead. Yeah, really, really nice to be with you again. Yeah, so 2022 was was the last time that I was uh I think on the on the podcast. I went, I was fortunate enough to go to the One Young World event in Manchester. So I got to spend some time in the UK and meet a lot of different makers from across the globe. Really, you know, really insightful, great week spent there. And then absolutely really enjoyed sharing my initial story um with you in the network and and looking forward to, yeah, I suppose give you give you a bit of an update in terms of what's taken place over the three years post.

Why Invigilator App Exists

Sinead Donovan 2:00

Fantastic. Okay, so let's go back a little bit. Tell us a bit about the um the company you've you've you you co-founded, Invigilator app. It's it's all to do with online assessments and the kind of the monitoring of that.

Nick Riemer 2:13

Correct. So I'm I'm from South Africa, I'm sure, as as the viewers can hear from the accent. And I think I was bitten by the academic bug, I suppose, early on in my chartered accountant studies, where I was fortunate to do one of my years of articles as as an academic, so academic articles. I was able to go and set some papers and lecture. And I just really enjoyed that. I did that at the University of Johannesburg. Um, and even moving on from that into corporate, I completed my articles at one of the investment banks in South Africa. I was able to still guess lecture for the university and then for one of the board courses as well for the second board exam for the chartered accountancy profession here in South Africa. And I just I really enjoyed it. Um, even moving into the banking world, I ended up heading up one of the investment education teams and did a lot of the unpacking of complex financial topics. Um, so I did a lot of the radio station interviews for the banks and a lot of the written communication that went out with regards to general market unpacks and updates and giving that sort of education angle on it. So I really enjoyed it. So there'd always been sort of a passion, I suppose, with education being there as well as tech and finance. Um, and when the global pandemic hit, I think something that was, you know, sort of immediately evident was that South Africa just didn't have any tech solutions that were going to be able to scale with regards to what we had as, you know, as I suppose as a as a context. At the time, we had students that didn't have access to devices, internet was a scarce commodity, power was a scarce commodity. We were going through something called load shedding at the time. And a lot of the big US and UK proctoring solutions that were really being trialed during that period required students to have all of these things. So really good laptop, really good internet, fiber line, and they were expensive and required students to upload large amounts of data. So they just never got off the ground. And that's really where we got together to say, well, surely there's a way to create a more inclusive tech stack so that all students could benefit from blended and online learning, not just in COVID, but post-COVID. Um, and we started in March, got together, started building our initial prototypes, and initially launched the Envigilata Mobile app to a handful of South African universities who then were able to continue writing exams throughout COVID. And I think that was our initial foot into the market. And once we got that, I suppose, little sniff of opportunity, so I dropped everything I was doing. And we've just made this the core focus on how do we make the tech better, how do we roll out further and wider, and more importantly, how do we make education more accessible? And that's exactly what online tools like ours do is that you can write an exam wherever it suits you, as opposed to having to travel to that university, needing the space, needing the brick and mortar. You don't need that anymore. You can write where and when it suits you, making studying more accessible.

Cutting Exam Costs And Barriers

Sinead Donovan 5:14

That's fascinating. And I mean, there is so much there to unpack. I mean, there's the there's and I will um I will come back to it. I'm really keen to understand how you scaled the company and and kind of the support you got from that. But but let's come to that core core premise of making education available to everybody. Um I I could speak about education all day as well, Nick. I'm I'm the global chair of the panel for education for IPAC or IFAC, and and and it is critical that everybody gets access to education. The Invigilator app has managed that. As you said, it's overcome some maybe uh connectivity issues. What have we what have you managed to open up to to students? Where and and how?

Nick Riemer 5:58

So I think if you if you look at South Africa and I suppose Africa as a whole, what we've been able to do is knock the borders down, in that a lot of the the students studying at the bigger universities in South Africa would typically travel from countries South Africa, find accommodation near an exam venue, and then have to go in physically and write your exam. So that meant that the universities obviously were sort of restricted with the amount of students that they accepted because they needed the physical space in the venue to fit all of the students to write the exam. And then there were obviously all of the fixed costs that were associated with that. So venue higher, venue cost, staff cost, logistics, printing of papers, then the distribution of scripts to and from markers and then back to students. So we've been able to fully solve that in that we eliminate all of those fixed costs. Everyone writes from home order location that suits them. Everything is monitored through our technology in an inclusive way. So whatever device you've got access to, you can write your exam. We're able to run offline. We're able to make sure that the exam is being done under the correct exam conditions. And then, more importantly, universities and schools can accept as many students that are applying to the program. They're no longer restricted by the space that they had available in the past. You can now accept more and more students. So what's starting to take place is that fixed costs and the costs of studying are coming down through the use of our technology. And so revenues going up at the institutions as well because they're accepting more and more students. So it's the only way to bring the cost of education down. And then, like I said, it takes away all of those additional costs to study because students don't have to study at a location that's close to their exam venue or lecture hall. They can stay in the country or stay in the location that suits their most, but study and receive all of their communication online. And then more importantly, do their exams online as well in a credible manner so that when they finish that course, that piece of paper that's got their degree or their diploma carries the same weight as it would have if they had been in a venue writing that examination. And I think that's something for us that we're really proud of. And if we look at the, you know, at the schooling system, a lot of the big private schools are just unaffordable for most South African citizens. So what we've been able to do is that a lot of the big private schools have now included an online element at a far reduced price because again, you don't need the venue, you don't need the staff, you don't need all of the logistics and the fixed costs associated with housing those students. You can still get the same level of quality of education, but you're going to be writing at a different place in terms of at home. So I think that for us has been something that we've been, you know, extremely passionate about. And I think if you look back at when we started, we were initially looked at as, you know, the watchdog, the owl is watching you, the invigilator is trying to catch you, cheating. And I mean, obviously that's where we started, right? Because we were going from no one was being monitored at all because you couldn't come into a venue with no tech, and then all of a sudden our tech was there to make sure that you were doing what you were doing. So ultimately, it was going to result in some people being caught to be behaving sort of unethically while writing, and there needed to be repercussion with that. But what started to transpire is our passion and our vision from the onset, and that's the Envigilator and online learning tools like it opens up education, it brings the cost of education down. All you need is an entry-devil smartphone, and you can upskill yourself by continuing to learn.

Going Global With A Local Moat

Sinead Donovan 9:26

Okay, and and and you say, and I mean, it it's phenomenal, and I mean it it is true equity and and giving everybody a chance. Is South Africa leading the way in this, Nick, or is this gone global? I mean, I I know I know the company has expanded, so so this is going absolutely global, is it?

Nick Riemer 9:44

Correct. So we spent um actually just got back from the UK. So we're working with you know some of the big schooling groups and some of the colleges have already rolled out onto our platform. We're working with some institutions in Australia as well. Um, we've got a big project underway now with the Philippines. So we are taking the tech sort of further and wider. I think when when initially looking at scaling and how we could grow the company faster, further, et cetera, and typically what your investors would be looking at, it was always important for me as the CEO of the company and leading the strategy that we got to a point that we understood our market best before we started playing in different markets we maybe didn't understand fully. And I think I wanted to build a motor around South Africa. I wanted to get feedback from the students, feedback from all of the staff members, both lecturers, professors, and teachers, to make sure that our tech was scalable, to make sure that our tech was efficient, to make sure that our tech was user-friendly and really did what it was supposed to do in maintaining academic credibility in an inclusive way. And we spent the last six years really working hard at doing that. And I think 2026, we've just concluded a big investment round, predominantly to help us scale across different markets. And I think there's been a big focus now on the EU and rolling the tech out further there. I think it's one of those weird things where a lot of South Africans think that some of these problems are isolated only to countries like South Africa, but it's not. I think all education or all institutions could do with tech that's more affordable, that could do with tech that's more inclusive, that could do with tech that allows the entire institution to use it as opposed to those fortunate few or just exit-level modules. And that's where I think there has been a demand for our product and what we do globally now as well. And we're really excited about rolling it out because I think it's not one of those businesses where it's just a pure profit play. This is for us a huge passion project where we know that opening up the Envigilator to different institutions outside of South Africa will give students the ability to now start studying in different countries without having to actually physically move there. So if there's a specific course that's offered at a spit at a certain university, but you might not have the financial means to travel and get accommodation near that institution, it now means you can study, you can get all your content online, and then more importantly, you can continue to learn and constantly write your exams online without having to move. Something else that we've seen with online learning is that a lot of the big institutions, it was only economically feasible to test students once or twice a year, typically mid-year, end-of-year exams. Why? Well, because that was what was economically feasible. Like I said, it comes with a huge element of fixed costs in assessing students. It's a big procedure in order to conduct examinations, but not anymore with tech like this. And now what we're seeing is institutions starting to test and engage with their students on a weekly basis, on a bi-monthly basis. And that is far more effective from a teaching and learning point of view. It develops critical thinking skills and we can move to less theoretical regurgitation and more. Here's the theory, practically applied to the scenario, while knowing academic credibility is being maintained through our platform.

Online Learning And Human Skills

Sinead Donovan 12:52

Okay, and and obviously that kind of global interface is also mirroring how we do business now, which is much more global and kind of um in the virtual world or or or or or lack of face-to-face. But with that comment, can I challenge you? And this may be a view or an opinion I'd love to get from you rather than rather than um as as the company co-founder, as education moves more and more to to online and assessment moves to online, um, is there a risk that we're losing some of the human-to-human skills? And and is that is that is that a problem? Or or is that just something that we we accept and we can replicate it somehow else?

Nick Riemer 13:33

Look, I'm all for a blended approach in teaching and interacting with other students. So I'm all for that. But I do think that teachers or lecturers or professors should have more time to do what they're passionate about, and that's to teach and to engage with students, not necessarily have to walk up and down exam halls monitoring academic behavior during an exam. I think that that is something that tech can do, like our platform. I think the distribution of scripts to markers and back to students is something that can be made much more efficient through technology. And this just frees up the academics' time to put more energy and more focus into how they're teaching, how they're engaging. And I'm all for a blended approach where we're still having face-to-face contact with a human being and teaching and understanding principles. But I do think that tech enables more continuous engagement with the material through rigorous testing. And I think that it frees up the academic and that they don't need to sit there watching, wasting their time for three hours watching an exam or write an exam. It's something that tech can do. And that brings the cost of education down and it also opens up way more options for students to continue studying, not just at university and school level, but even when they are working, it means that I can now work my full day, come back, and I can progress in terms of my studies because I don't need to physically go to a campus to write my exam and continue my education development.

Ethical AI Proctoring With Human Review

Sinead Donovan 15:02

Okay, that's that's brilliant. And and you look, I look, I I completely agree. And I'd say every educator would agree that it's the best use of their time, not sitting for three hours in an exam hall. Um, the use of AI and the constant debate at the moment in education terms is the ethical use of AI and how there is a risk that you know it can be abused, it can be um used for um incorrect means. What's either your view on that or how have you successfully managed that in the company?

Using AI In Assessments Responsibly

Nick Riemer 15:36

Yeah, so I think I mean it's it's a great question. It's such a topical question. I get it all the time in in the different panel discussions that we have. And I think for us as a business, if we just think about what AI has unlocked from a tech point of view, I came from a business we set up where we typically have to gather data while a student wrote and post that student completing their exam, upload all of that data to a server to process and generate a report in terms of understanding the behavior of that exam. Now with AI, we've been able to move to AI running locally on students' devices, meaning we actually don't need to upload these big files anymore and process that information on server side. We can actually utilize devices to unpack what needs to be uploaded and discard good behavior because the teacher doesn't need to see you sitting there behaving, doing what you need to do. They typically need to see when you do something that you shouldn't be doing. And that's typically what's used then for the disciplinary process or the disciplinary report. And I think what we've been able to do with the use of AI is train our models to understand what good behavior looks like, what bad behavior looks like, and move to a point where we can be hugely data efficient, monitor a student for the entire time, even though we can run completely offline and reduce the upload to a five or a 10 megabyte file, as opposed to live streaming a student the entire time, uploading that full file and processing that full file. So, what that means is it allows all students to make use of the tech, doesn't exclude anyone because it's hugely data-like. And it also means the price point comes right down for institutions because processing power and servers are the expensive aspect in terms of monitoring and processing that data. So for us, we've been able to make our solution extremely lightweight, but rival what your big full proctoring solutions are doing in terms of live and continuous streaming. So for us, it's meant more access to our product for institutions that have never been able to move blended or never been able to move online. So huge progression for us in moving, ramping up credibility, but keeping that inclusive aspect. So I think from that point of view, it's been it's been uh you know hugely beneficial. And we've just jumped on it straight away in terms of training our own models as quickly as we can, continuing to refine them so that we're able to give lecturers, teachers, professors the visibility they need, but to do it in a way that doesn't exclude any parts of the population globally from utilizing our tech. So hugely beneficial for us in terms of ethical AI usage. I think it's very important that there's a combination between what AI thinks you're doing and a final human being or teacher saying, I agree with this. It needs to be looked at. There needs to be a disciplinary process. And that's always been part of the Envigilado in that we are 50% a tech company and then 50% an academic company, and that we've got a blend of 50% academics, 50% tech experts or software engineers. So what this means is that our AI would flag you are talking, this is what we think you have talked about, and we've been able to generate those recordings as a result. But there would always be the academic, the human being, that would go through that data once it's been flagged, once it shows you exactly what you need to look at. And that would then rely on the academic giving the final decision. And I think that's the right approach. We don't want to solely rely on AI. AI is good. You can certainly train it to do a lot of things, but it's a guidance tool, especially when it comes to something as serious as a disciplinary process. So there would always be the teacher, there would always be the professor that would review the data as a second set of eyes and make sure that what we have flagged is correct so that there's no false flagging. The third aspect is obviously the use of AI in education. And that's also a very, you know, sort of topical conversation at the moment. Should AI be banned? Should it not be banned? Are there actual accurate tools that can detect AI language? So we've got a, I suppose a blend. We've got the opinion that, you know, at certain times in life, you have got to study hard and you have got to write a closebook assessment. And in a scenario like that, AI should not be used. So we have got all the right tools to mitigate that risk. Whether it's monitoring what you're doing on the PC, whether it's locking you down to the LMS only, or whether it's some of our AI detection tools, we can absolutely monitor that and give academics the report post the assessment that gives them all the information they need in terms of the student's behavior. But there's also then the case of AI should be used because it's a tool that's going to be used post-school, post-university, but it needs to be used in an ethical way. And what I mean by saying that is it doesn't serve any purpose if an assessment or an assignment is requiring a student to copy and paste directly from AI and receive a mark. That is not a skill set. What a skill set is in terms of utilizing AI is practically applying AI to a scenario. So how what is that student prompting? How much of an answer has a student copying and pasted from an AI tool or from a re sort of paraphrasing tool? Those are the types of things that our tech can also look at so that you can have more open book type styles of assessment where you can say utilize AI, but it's not, you know, any model. It can be you're only allowed to use Chat GBT, and our solution is going to then lock you to one specific large language model. And then when you are doing your piece of work, we are going to check how well are you actually utilizing that AI tool and practically completing the assignment, because we don't want students to overrely on AI and not actually test their critical thinking skills and just copy and paste from AI sources. Like I said, that's not serving any purpose. So we've also got to equip academics with the right tool set to conduct these types of assessments in the right way. And these types of tools are obviously fantastic in being able to have a blend between a closed book assessment when you should study and you should write with no resources, and when you should be allowed to practically apply some AI to a scenario, but make sure you're doing it in the right way and still develop all developing critical thinking. Yeah.

Will AI Replace Jobs Or Upgrade Them

Sinead Donovan 21:44

Wow. I hope everyone managed to keep up with that because there was an awful lot there, but incredibly well answered. And what I took from that was that we are still going to all have jobs because it absolutely still needs some human interaction and as you said the human oversight and the human, I I guess when when you referred to disciplinary cases, that's going to be the human judgment and and and and all of that. But but also the acknowledgement that the use of AI tools by students is going to happen and is right to happen because it's it's it's like back in 50 years ago were students banned from using calculators. No, they weren't. They used it. But it's it's how to best uh adapt that and look I I I think that was I think that was phenomenal. I guess you know kind of the doomsday scenario where does this end Nick will will the computers take over the world? Will we be done out of jobs? Will they fly ahead of us all?

Nick Riemer 22:43

Yeah it's I mean it's yeah it it it depends on on who you watch I suppose because I think you know depending on which tech CEO you're listening to you can get you can get quite down right with what the what the future holds. For for me in in running our company I don't think so I think that AI allows us to become more efficient. So it's not one of those things where you think there's going to be no impact and if I stick my head in the sand you know it's not going to impact me. I think that's the wrong approach. But on the other end of the scale AI is just going to replace everything I'm doing is also not the right approach. So I think there's there's there's a huge opportunity to see how AI can be used within your current job, how you can be more efficient with the use of AI and doing your job better. I think that's what the future is going to hold because I think that there are certain tasks, admin tasks that certainly can be done better with AI, but in combination of your skill set. And I think that for us as as chartered accountants, I find it very difficult to see how AI is going to completely replace that skill set. You can certainly utilize AI to make faster better more calculated decisions, but it's going to be in combination with the skill set that you have built up. So for me, you know I I really am optimistic about the future and what this all holds because I think it gives you the ability to create new skill sets. I mean for me I studied chartered accountancy I went into finance I ended up really focusing on the markets and financial topics and being able to explain that to people in a clever way you know fast forward a couple of years later and we're utilizing AI to come up with new features that we could potentially code into our platforms. How do we make our solution continuously more inclusive? So all of these opportunities are there as a result of AI because you can upskill yourself so quickly now I think gone are the days that you know I don't know how to do something. It's all available it's up to you. So if you are someone that is passionate about the chartered accounting profession, passionate about continuously progressing your life and your skill sets, I think AI is a wonderful opportunity to do that because you know before if you think about it if I wanted to learn how to code in combination with being a CA, I would probably have to go and do some sort of software engineering course that would probably take me two or three years at a university and I have to give up some time and go and study hard and practically apply that develop my skills whereas now the majority of that initial coding work can be explained very simply through online courses. And you can then utilize ChatGPT to help analyze some of your coding ideas. So I just find it fascinating. There's nothing that you can't teach yourself now with the use of A and I think that's the important bit. I think that you can be hugely optimistic about what the future holds I am but that's just how I am in nature I'm always optimistic and I think that that goes sort of hand in hand right with what the way an entrepreneur's attitude's got to be. So I'm not saying that that you know is absolutely right but I just think you know with with looking at at AI and what it's going to allow you to do from an efficiency point of view, from a skill set point of view, it's a really exciting time to be alive. But you cannot be sort of neglecting the opportunity or sticking your head in the sand and pretending it's not going to have an impact on you. I think that is the completely wrong approach. I think you need to embrace AI and see how you can become a better sort of financial mind with the use of AI. And you might surprise yourself with what skill sets you can develop over the next 12 months.

How Chartered Accountancy Helps Fundraising

Sinead Donovan 26:19

Challenge yourself lovely and I think that is going to be the soundbite for this podcast is is is that positivity and the balance of really embracing AI uh leaning into it um but but but but also harnessing the the the human the human skills I mean let's be honest Nick people like doing business with humans. We like interfacing with each other I'm not chatting I'm not chatting to an AI bot here. I'm chatting to you because I'm getting something back and we're getting interaction so look to me I I I'm with you I'm hugely positive. I think so long as we balance those human to human um skill sets that we need as a chartered accountant I I I think I think it's all good.

Closing Thoughts And Challenge

Nick Riemer 27:03

Final one of the final questions to you you've mentioned chartered accountancy there quite quite a lot and and you're obviously passionate about the training you've had and the career you've had uh you've grown a fabulous company you've scaled it you've got investment you've you you you know all of that how important was chartered accountancy qualification to you in that and how important do you think it was to external investors as well when when they looked to to invest in the company if you look at a traditional tech company and the types of raises they do typically they were loss making typically they've got a huge burn rate and typically you're raising upon raising upon raising um so I think for for me something that was maybe uh a breath of fresh air to to investors is that yes we were a tech company but we were a tech company on sound financial principles meaning we set the company up to make profits to make money it wasn't just there's a sort of death by raise where you get to sort of series E and you've raised and raised and raised and raised and raised and diluted yourself right down. I wanted to make sure that from you know sort of the early stages the company was profitable. We were growing we were we were certainly moving in the right direction. And I think you know the the chartered accountancy skill set is the best skill set to do that because we've never needed outside guidance or a professional company come in and help us with our valuations and help us talk to investors and help us get our pitch decks together. That's been something that you know I've been able to do internally within the company not just with myself but with other chartered accountants and really engage with investors and hold your own you know in these big boardrooms in in discussing sort of where you know what we're looking for in a strategic partner. So so I think for us in in setting up the company that that chartered accountancy skill set is hugely valuable because you know in the early stages cash flow is key managing cash flow understanding where money needs to be reinvested is what we are trained to do. So it's been hugely beneficial in being able to you know utilize that skill set and growing in vigilate especially in the early stages and then in the later stages creating your value by understanding what your company's forecasts are going to be being able to put that all into a pitch deck that you yourself would be able to understand with your financial background. And then obviously holding your own in those types of big discussions and raising money and making sure that you do the right deal. So for me, I think it's always been one of those things where people are surprised when I tell them I've actually come from a chartered accounting background. They always think that there must be some sort of big tech background that you're coming from to run a company like this. No, not at all. The strong chartered accountancy background allowed me to get the right individuals in terms of the tech skill set needed to help us create the invigilator and then to put sound financial principles in place from the beginning and thus resulted in us being profitable early on and thus receiving a really good valuation and being able to raise it a good number where we've got a huge amount of capital in the business to help us grow and achieve the goals and the passion of making education accessible. So the CA profession is the best financial foundation that you can give yourself and I think once you've got it, the world is really your oyster especially if you want to be an entrepreneur because this is what investors are looking for. Yeah.

Sinead Donovan 30:23

Boom that is it in one sentence and Nick people can't believe you're a chart accountant because they think you're too cool to be a charged accountant but the lesson here is that it is cool to be a charged accountant because it opens up so many doors and and and avenues to us all. Nick I I want to I want to congratulate you you have um grown something really special you have opened doors to people that probably wouldn't have had those doors open to them. I have no idea no doubt we will have a third episode of this in a few years' time when you've probably done something mad like listed the company or or or done something um suitably impressive. I want to wish you tons and tons of success and congratulations for all you've done and for being such a good ambassador to the profession. So thank you Nick from a rainy Dublin to a 30 degree South Africa I want to wish you all the best.

Nick Riemer 31:14

Thank you so much and I'd really appreciate it and love talking to you and absolutely looking forward to our third conversation in the future.

Sinead Donovan 31:22

Brilliant and thank you to all of you who have stayed with us to the end of this what what an amazing episode isn't that great and maybe go off and think about um what you can do now as a founder of a business and what you can do with AI. Signing off here from Dublin but looking forward to seeing you in the next episode of Difference Makers Discuss.