Kingsley Aikins - Good work doesn't speak for itself... But you can!

Your career is not a solo sport, and pretending it is can quietly stall your progress. We’re joined by Kingsley Aikins, widely known for his work on professional networking and relationship building, to talk about what networking really looks like when it’s done with decency, curiosity, and intent.

Kingsley shares the stories that shaped his outlook, from rugby and the “five people you spend time with” idea, to landing in Sydney knowing nobody and helping create the Lansdowne Club, now one of the largest Irish business networks anywhere. We dig into the moment many of us recognise: thinking networking is sleazy or fake, then realising that other people hold the keys to jobs, clients, promotions, and opportunities. Hard skills may get you on the ladder, but soft skills get you up the ladder.

We also get practical. Kingsley breaks networking down into a repeatable process (research, cultivation, solicitation, stewardship) and explains why introverts can be better networkers than extroverts. We talk about loneliness in a screen-first world, the layers of a modern network (personal, strategic, operational, online), and why your LinkedIn profile and personal brand matter whether you like those terms or not.

If you want clearer connections, stronger career resilience, and a smarter way to show your value without self-promotion, press play. Subscribe, share this with someone building their network, and leave us a review with the one relationship skill you’re working on.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Sinead Donovan 0:13

Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening to you all to this episode of Difference Makers Discuss. I am delighted to be joined in the studio today by Kingsley Aikins, who is well, I don't even know how I'm going to introduce Kingsley because he is just such a guru in the world of networking, in the world of relationship builds. And he has just launched a book or written a book, Networking Matters, published by Charged Accountants Ireland. And Kingsley is going to talk to us today about the importance of networking, the importance to the profession, the importance to the world at large. So that is my introduction. But Kingsley, you're very welcome and thank you for coming in to us.

Kingsley Aikins 0:55

And thanks for having me, Sinead.

Sinead Donovan 0:56

Not at all. Kingsley, can you try, and I know this is going to be really difficult in a few minutes, but can you try and introduce yourself to the listeners and tell us about your journey?

Kingsley Aikins 1:06

Okay,

Kingsley’s Journey Through Rugby

Kingsley Aikins 1:07

my journey. Well, look, I'm I'm from Dublin, Ireland, born educated here. Mum was an Irish teacher, dad had a business, which I interesting enough, he he started working for that company when he was 14 and he left it when he was 77.

Sinead Donovan 1:21

Wow.

Kingsley Aikins 1:21

63 years in one company. Wow. So I often think, you know, the changes we've seen in the world, that ain't happening anymore. In in the old days, you know, um people outlived companies, you know, and and it's just all changed. So um school and college here actually went off to France and played a season of rugby over there. Now I wasn't a great rugby player, but I was I got I I got on a team over there and played for a season, got beat up um and had to give up rugby. But I enjoyed it. I was on the Leinster team at the time, so I I was okay, but wasn't great. I of course wanted to play for Ireland and all that, but that was never going to happen. But one thing I did learn from rugby, a couple of things I learned from rugby. One was that um, you know, there were some great players on my team who went on to do wonderful things. Captain was a guy called Dick Spring who went into politics. Scrum half was a guy called John Robby who played for in South Africa. Philip Orr was the problem. So so it was I I do believe that to a certain extent, there's a guy called Jim Rohn in America says you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with. So I spent a lot of time with these people, and some of that kind of rubbed off. Um, so after that episode was all over, I went to London, I did a postgrad, and I joined, Sinead, you're too young to remember, Corostructala, which is the Irish Export Board. I remember and what you normally do is spend a few years there, and then they'd post you overseas. That's what I really want. I want to post, I was very keen to get out of Ireland. You know, I I think you know the old line, who knows Ireland, who only Ireland knows? In other words, if you want to know your country, you've got to go away and spend time away. So I was very keen to go away. And I put my name down for a posting. I'll never remember, I'll never forget what happened. There were five cities up for grabs. It was Moscow, um, Sydney, um, Lagos, Glasgow, and then the glamour posting, Limerick, right? So I got Sydney.

Sinead Donovan 3:12

Oh my goodness, wow.

Kingsley Aikins 3:14

Dirty job, somebody's got to do it. And when your country calls, so off I went and I spent eight years there in Sydney, and it was fantastic. But when I arrived there, I didn't know a sinner in Australia. I met a lot of sinners when I was there, but I didn't know anybody there. And I my mum gave me the name of a neighbor's son who lived in Sydney. I rang him and I said, I don't know anybody. Can you introduce

Creating The Lansdowne Club In Sydney

Kingsley Aikins 3:35

me to the local Irish business network? He said, There isn't one. So I said, Look, why don't we set one up? So we got together like 12 people one night and we had a dinner. We called ourselves the Lansdown Road Club because we're rugby guys, and then in a spirit of sort of sporting ecumenism, we dropped the word road. So it's the Lansdowne Club and it's there today. It is the biggest Irish business network in any city in the world. They have their St. Patrick's Day lunch next week. I was talking to Theresa Keating, who worked with me and has been running it ever since, and she said that they put out the call for people who want to buy tickets, and a thousand sales were done in 20 minutes. So it was a wonderful kind of. And for me, it was a nice kind of legacy I left. And I met when I was over there, I was trying to find somebody who'd be a great name to head up the Landstown Club. And I wrote a letter to a guy called another name you'd probably remember, Tony O'Reilly, head of the H. J. Hines Food Company in the United States. And he, a huge big name, me and nobody. And I wrote to him and I couldn't believe it. He wrote back and he said, I'd love to be involved. I'm building networks of Irish people in business all around the world. And thirdly, he said, and I couldn't believe this, he said, Would you be free for lunch? Because I'm coming to Sydney. Would I be free for lunch? I was gonna say no, I'm busy, Tony, but but I said, love to meet you. I met him for lunch. We talked about rugby for about two hours and lots of other things, and I ended up working for him for 21 years. So I moved to America and lived in Boston for 15 years, and I ran a thing called the Ireland Funds over there. But of course, the glue that made everything work was networking. And if I hadn't learnt to be reasonable at networking, I don't think I would have made any progress. So that's it in a nutshell.

Sinead Donovan 5:19

Now there is so much to unpack there. Can I just for the listeners say, ran a thing called the Ireland Funds? I mean, the thing called the Ireland Funds is huge and is one of our I don't know, uh a showpiece for for Ireland philanthropy almost, isn't it?

Kingsley Aikins 5:33

So land networking and and it was well here's this you know, Sinead, we had a huge history of emigration from Ireland. So in in history, in total, 10 million people have left this island. It's an unbelievable number. That's the bad news. But the good news is 10 million people left this island because we now have a global empire, not built by military might or force of arms, just the fact so many Irish people went and had to go, and of course the famine had been the big driver. In fact, Tony, I remember when I met him first, he said there was a time when the Prime Minister of New Zealand was called Muldoon, the Prime Minister of Australia was Keating, the Prime Minister of Great Britain was Callahan, the Prime Minister of Canada was Mulroney, and the President of the United States was Reagan. I mean, that's one of the great tribes of the world.

Sinead Donovan 6:20

Okay, so before we alienate all the listeners, we're not going to just go into Ireland history, but it is amazing. And and one small uh snippet there, you mentioned the Lansdowne Club. I went to Sydney in '97, '98 as a young church accountant. And I went to the Lansdowne, uh, St. Patrick's Day. It is one of the showpiece events for the Irish down there. So it's it it is um uh it is, and I know it's still going strong as you say, so it's amazing. So well done. Well done on that. Yeah, that's tough. Um, so I I I think that's phenomenal. I think what we've learned from that is whatever you turn your hand to Kingsley, you do uh not just well, but you bring it to the nth degree. But talk to me a little bit about when it kind of hit you uh that networking was kind of so important and so needed and and an art. I think you do describe it as an art or something that you can learn.

Kingsley Aikins 7:10

Yeah, I mean, I think it's I don't even not even sure if it's an art or a science, it's a process. It's a process. Yeah, and if you follow the process, you have a greater chance of success than if you don't.

Sinead Donovan 7:18

Okay.

Kingsley Aikins 7:18

To a certain extent, in my case, it was a needs must. I I had no choice. I didn't know anybody in these places. And I've been to countries and lived in countries where I didn't know anybody when I arrived. So it was a terrific mechanism to get there. But I have to say, Sinead, when I started out in my career, I hated networking. I thought it was a sleazy, slimy activity for inauthentic people, you know, late at night in a bar, flicking out business cards, looking for a sale, looking for a job. You know, you wake up in the morning, you find somebody who's business card and they turn up your trousers. Where did that come from? What happened last night? So I just thought it was a horrible thing. And then sort of over time, I I

Why Networking Stops Being Optional

Kingsley Aikins 7:55

think I learned probably three key lessons. I mean, the first one is that I read an article once that said the number one predictor of career success is being in an open network. Now, a closed network would be, let's say you had a party and you invited everybody you knew and they all knew each other.

Sinead Donovan 8:11

Yeah.

Kingsley Aikins 8:11

Whereas an open network is where there's a lot of diversity, there's a lot of difference. So I kind of copped on on that point. The second thing I realized is that I think the two most important words in the English language for all of us when it comes to our careers is actually other people. So if you think about it, Sinead, you'll never get a job unless other people agree to it. You'll never get a sale unless other people agree to it. You'll never get a client as an accountant unless other people agree to it. So other people hold the keys to your career progress, and not just professionally, but you'll never get married unless other people agree to it. So so I you know, uh it's all about then connections, relationships, all those things really, really matter. But here's the irony in all of that that although everybody agrees it's really, really important, people don't teach it. Schools and colleges don't teach it. I mean, you're just expected to be kind of good at it. And I think I got a piece of advice, and I wonder how many of your listeners got this advice when I was starting out in my career from my parents, which is work hard, keep your head down, keep out of trouble, and let your good work speak for itself. But actually, that's pretty poor advice because good work doesn't speak, other people speak. Yeah, and if nobody knows how you're contributing to your organization, to whatever you're doing in life, guess what? They move right along to somebody else.

Sinead Donovan 9:37

Yeah, it's it's absolutely fascinating what you say, and and I I really want to get into the whole thing about that you you you didn't necessarily like networking because I can relate to that hugely as a young charged accountant. Um I kind of railed against I I was brought up the same way, and my dad and my mum would say, you know, work hard, quality will shine through, and and you'll get your just rewards. And I started getting a bit annoyed because I'd see people, as I saw it, playing the game around me, and they were getting maybe further on than I was. And it took me a long time to realize that playing the game okay, it was said pejoratively, but but it didn't necessarily need to be a bad thing, it was about representing yourself, it was about, as you say, making connections with other people and and kind of selling yourself. And that's what networking well, it's interesting because in in your book you say networking is much more about giving than getting. Um and talk to

Open Networks And Career Momentum

Sinead Donovan 10:35

me a little bit about that.

Kingsley Aikins 10:36

So if you think um I've got a problem, I need something for myself, so I'm gonna go network. I mean, what happens is that becomes obvious to people that all you want from them is a transactional relationship, you want something from them. Whereas I came at it from a sort of a different sense of you know how can I help other people? How can I put my network at the disposal of other people? How can I add value to other people? And it's based on, I guess, probably the simplest premise of all about life and in general is that the more you give and the more you have become known as a kind of a giving type of person, it kind of comes back to you. You're never quite sure how and when and where, but it just does. And I think people have to make a decision to either believe in that or not. And I think you know the world we're living in now is transactional, confrontational, protectionist, isolationist. I mean, it's it's a pretty gruesome time we're going through right now. So I think if ca hanging on to some of those, maybe they're old-fashioned 19th century thoughts and ideas and ways of behaving, I just think that it's it's critical for our our own lives. And also, I think we all want to belong. I'm a big fan of the notion of belonging, whether it be to a country or a region or a city or an organization. Um, and again, these are I think these are all sort of soft concepts, you know. And I think um and I think soft power is a very interesting concept. I mean, there's a guy called um Nye, Professor Nye in Harvard, he's written a book called Soft Power. And soft power is the ability to get what you want through attraction rather than coercion.

Sinead Donovan 12:11

Okay.

Kingsley Aikins 12:12

And uh, you know, and and yet we're living in a very confrontational kind of environment and world right now.

Sinead Donovan 12:18

Is that not a bit manipulative, what you just say? Is that not the art of manipulation?

Kingsley Aikins 12:24

Well, manipulation to me sounds pretty negative. Yeah. You know, and I would prefer things, were concepts and ideas like cooperation, collaboration, okay. Although sort of slightly softer, and I guess it's maybe the other side of that coin.

Sinead Donovan 12:38

Which it so often is, isn't it? That there is two sides to and it's how you describe it or or or how you refer to it. Come back to a comment you said there about that you you you you initially found didn't like networking or found it a bit a bit sleazy, and maybe found it, I don't know, you didn't say you found it hard, but you've obviously mastered the art of networking, Kingsley. And I you believe that it can be taught.

Kingsley Aikins 13:02

Yeah, I think we tend to mix up networking and sociability.

Sinead Donovan 13:06

Okay.

Kingsley Aikins 13:06

I think we tend to think somebody who's really sociable is by far the best networker. And in fact, and and I think people find it hard to buy into the following comment is that actually introverts can be better at networking than extroverts. And why is that? Because they do it with decency and authenticity and integrity, they ask questions, um, they listen, they start sentences with who, what, when, where, why, and how, and finish with a question mark.

Giving First And Soft Power

Kingsley Aikins 13:33

Whereas the extrovert kind of wants to wow you, wants to impress you, looking over your shoulder to find somebody more interesting to talk to. And I think in any group, maybe about a third are introverts, maybe a third or so are extroverts. But I think a third would be where I think I fall. I'm an ambivert. So an ambivert is somebody who I love out and about, I love social events, I love all that. But I very much need time on my own. I need time, you know, to recharge. And I think there's a difference between being lonely and being alone. And that said, I think loneliness is one of the great crises of our times. And networking is an antidote to loneliness.

Sinead Donovan 14:12

But but by what you've said there, you do need to work at it to to get good at it. Is that fair to say?

Kingsley Aikins 14:19

Like everything in life, practice makes perfect, you know. Um and the more you practice, the luckier you get. Yeah, well that was scary player in golf, you know. And uh I I I would buy into that, you know. And if you make it part and parcel of your kind of of of you as an individual, but also as an organization, part of the house style. So, you know, culture, the definition of culture, I think the great definition is the way things are done around here. And if you have an organization that reflects that, I think it's a it's a huge positive.

Sinead Donovan 14:49

Okay, and and and in your book, you do actually go into a little bit of detail as to the steps or the process that makes a good networker. Do you want to try and share that with the listeners?

Kingsley Aikins 15:01

Yeah, I mean, um, as I said, it's not really an art or science, it's more, it's more a process, and there's four steps to it. Yeah. Um, and it's research, it's cultivation, it's solicitation, it's stewardship. My job in in the United States with the Ireland Funds primarily was to raise funds um for for projects, in this case in Ireland, but it could be for any country. In fact, the funny thing was the first event we had with a gu with Tony O'Reilly and with Dan Rooney, who owned the Pittsburgh Steelers, um, we we ran a big event to launch this idea, this concept in New York, it was in the Waldorf Astoria. And the dinner was the event was so unsuccessful. The only reason we had a second event a year later was to pay for the first event. And that's $700 million ago. So another lesson I learned, nobody starts a large organization. Everything starts at zero. I mean, when you think about it, the 21-year-old son of a Syrian migrant called Steve Jobs and his 27-year-old buddy called Steve Wozniak, in a garage in Cooper Tina in California,

Introverts Can Be Better Networkers

Kingsley Aikins 16:05

made the first bits and pieces of an Apple computer and sold it. It's a three trillion dollar company, but that's where it started. And around the corner, there's two guys, Bill Hewlett and Doug Packard, with a printing company. Walt Disney's cartoon came out of a shed at the back with his cartoon. I mean, even you know, people like Facebook started in a dorm, uh, you know, Amazon started in somebody's front room. Ryan Eyre, you know, started with one plane and 18 passengers in 1985. You'll do 220 million passengers this year. So I love that notion. And it applied to the the world of that I was involved with in the US.

Sinead Donovan 16:40

So everything has to start somewhere. Is there though with the current generation, and I love the and when I say the current generation, the the younger people, and and and I just want to say this first. I love the younger people, they are brilliant, they can teach us so much. Um, but I I think they've I think they've got a hard time. It it they almost want immediacy or need immediacy because that's what they're growing up with with everything around them, and then they also have the pressure of social media. And sorry, we're bobbling around topics here, but it comes back to your what you said about loneliness. And sometimes I think that the young people today, whilst they have maybe 300 friends on Snapchat or a thousand followers or whatever it may be, they can be very lonely. I mean, are you seeing a difference in how the youngsters need to network than what we did 20 or 30 years ago?

Kingsley Aikins 17:32

So we didn't have any technology really in in our time. So we actually had to do it all the kind of the old-fashioned way, which now is there's options out there, and of course, technology is phenomenal and it's wonderful. I'm not in any way a Luddite or against technology, and I think AI is going to be brilliant in lots of areas like healthcare and things like that. But I I'm always conscious of reading a book by a woman called Sherry Turkle, and the book was called Alone Together, and and and she said that the bizarre, the ironic thing is that technology, which was designed to bring us all together, is actually having exactly the opposite effect. We're all alone, she said, in front of a screen. And sometimes when I do these workshops with corporates, I I ask people, you know, when you think back on your life, you know, what were the most memorable experiences of your life? Were they with other people or were were they with in front of a screen? And everybody will give the obvious answer to that. So yes, there is those, there are those opportunities. I I think when when you think about young people and people of our generation in terms of their network, they need to have a personal network. And we all have that, friends and buddies and mates and all that good stuff. And what's nice about that is that they're all doing different things in different places. So the possibilities of referral and advice and suggestions is good. We need to have a strategic network. That means we need to identify the people who are going to help us get to where we want to get to in our own careers in the next five

A Simple Four Step Networking Process

Kingsley Aikins 18:58

to ten years. The third thing is we need to have an operational network. In other words, you know, we need to have a respectful relationship with the people with whom we do our work that will allow us to be efficient and effective operators. We don't have to hang out with these people, we don't have to go to pub on a Friday night with them, but we need to have a respectful relationship. But then the fourth thing, and I think this is more current and segues back to your question. I think now we need to have an online network. Because here's the thing, Sinead, if I Google your name, the first thing that comes up is your LinkedIn profile. So if you don't have one, that says something, or if you have one, it's a bad one, that says something. And like it or not, we live in a world where people are either googling or being Googled. You know, that's that's just the real politic of the world that we're in. So I think um, you know, that's that's a new layer that's been added into relationships and networking.

Sinead Donovan 19:50

Yeah, and and when we were talking earlier, uh Kingsy, I think you said there's we're not on we're not an ad for LinkedIn now, but there's 1.4 billion people on LinkedIn, but only what did you say, less than 1% or just 1%, greater than 1% post.

Kingsley Aikins 20:04

Correct. I mean, I I did training for LinkedIn the other day and in Dublin here, and they have their European HQ here, the few thousand people working for them from all over the world, they're fantastic people. But they were telling me that you know, 1.4 billion people in the world have told this company, here's all my education details, here's all my work experience, here's you know who I know, and you can have it, and you can have it for free. Wow, that's phenomenal. So they are the depository of incredible information, but less than one percent of people post. So, you know, a lot of people are lurkers, if you like. They just, you know, they they use it and they watch it. Every every class I teach in companies, I ask how many people are on LinkedIn, and every hand goes up, you know. So, particularly for business and particularly for professions, I think it's important.

Sinead Donovan 20:50

And does that posting bit maybe come back a little bit to what we talked about earlier? The two things one, give in to get, because if you actually post really good content, you're kind of giving, and that might help your network. But then also the you know, the working at it and the the working at the networking and the working at, I guess, selling yourself or developing your brand. And we hear this a lot, Kingsy, you develop a personal brand. Yeah, what's your view on that?

Kingsley Aikins 21:17

What a turn off.

Sinead Donovan 21:18

I know, I know, yeah, yeah.

Kingsley Aikins 21:20

So, look, and I'm always nervous about talking about the topic because it does make you sound like a tin of beans, right? But here's the thing, Shine, you know, we all have a personal brand, whether we like it or not. In fact, bizarrely, not having a personal brand is having a personal brand, if you kind of think about it. I love the definition. A brand is a promise that lives through an experience that creates a memory, that leads to loyalty, that results in clients, sales, accountants, you know, all that kind of stuff. I I I love that definition because I think it touches on all the different elements. So the question is, you know, um Do you want to determine what your personal brand is, or do you want other people to determine what your personal brand is? And your personal brand is a lot to do with your reputation. And your reputation is what people say about you when you're not in the room. Jeff Bezos famously once said. And your reputation, not only does it sort of follow you around, it often precedes you. People have a view on you, even before they've even met you. So whether people find this distasteful or not, is the world that we we live in. So I think your your own your personal brand is an important thing. And the reality is people are going to be checking you out, you know, and and there's ways and devices for people to find out about you. Um and so I think it is important.

Sinead Donovan 22:42

So to a certain extent, even if you mightn't like the term, you do have a personal brand, so you may as well own it and and and drive it in the direction you want it to be driven in.

Kingsley Aikins 22:51

Well, and driving is a good analogy. I mean, do you want to be in the driving seat or do you want to be in the passenger seat when it comes to your personal brand? You know, and do you are you happy to let other people to determine what it is? So without and it's a difficult one to get the definitions right because it does smack of smarminess, of being a self-promoter, of being, you know, all those slightly negative things. On the other hand, you know, we know from from just products, you know, products people pay more for a brand

Technology And The Loneliness Paradox

Kingsley Aikins 23:20

than they do for a product. You know, they will pay an extra. So if you want to make an impact, and we're in this world of instantaneous connection and impact, I think it's worth thinking about the topic.

Sinead Donovan 23:30

Okay, that's fascinating. That's really that's that's really fascinating. Um we're coming up towards the end of session of episode one of this, but the good news, listeners, is we've got an episode two with uh Kingsley because there's so much to discuss and unpack. But um you've mentioned a few times the soft skills, and um to bring it a little bit back to the profession, but but but it's the profession and it's it's the wider business. Um I I I personally I'm involved in uh in the education of accountants, and I've just come back from a week's workshop, and we were discussing hugely about the need to really focus in on the human skills, and um, you know, the some people do call it soft skills. I I'm talking about things like um negotiation, like relationship bills, like communications, and and we believe in the profession it is really going to be vital that we teach our accountants of tomorrow those skills because um because they're gonna be needed, especially in the advent of AI when that might take over technical. So sorry, that was a long-winded way of saying. What is your view on those human skills? How much importance should we be giving them um at the moment? And and again, how can we teach them if it's not by osmosis?

Kingsley Aikins 24:55

So when you think about it, I mentioned at the beginning, like schools and colleges don't teach soft skills, they teach hard skills, and and you have to have these hard skills. Hard skills get you on the ladder, soft skills get you up the ladder. But if progress in school or college

Strategic Networks And LinkedIn Reality

Kingsley Aikins 25:11

is a function of a grade, a score, a mark, a metric, and it's got nothing to do with the person sitting beside you. And and then you get into the real world of work, and there's a whole series of things that count but can't be counted. So resilience and determination and grit and attitude and humor, and as we say here, crack, they all count a lot. They all matter a lot, but they can't be counted, so they tend to be discounted. And that's a gap, that's a shame, you know. So I think that that's sort of first point to be that. I think there's a series of things, skills, if you like, um, that go to make up this this kind of mosaic of of soft skills. I think being a really great listener is one, which again, listening's not taught. Most people listen, I say they listen for the gap. Most people listen purely to wait to jump in with what they want to say. Most people are narcissistic listeners. In other words, you know, if if you said to me, I'm I'm thinking of buying a car, you know, I bought one last weekend, the guy wanted 20,000. I jump in and say, I got one the week before for 30,000. It's a fantastic car. I mean, we tend to hijack conversations. We want to jump in, we want to give advice, advice, advice, but it doesn't work because it's not their advice, it's your advice, you know. So listening as a form of activity, listening not just to what somebody says but what they're going to say next, being curious. I I actually often think we live in a strangely uncurious world. People don't really show much interest, etc. So being a great listener, I think, is an incredible skill in networking. Um, but I think the other one I love is uh the notion of serendipity, luck and chance. And the question is, can you make luck happen for you or does it happen to you? You know, and of course there's bad luck out there. We could get cancer or knock get knocked down the street, etc. But but I am a believer that you can actually make these things happen for you. Or put it this way luck, serendipity and chance don't happen lying in bed or sitting at your desk. They happen when you're out and about, when you're in

Personal Brand And Reputation Control

Kingsley Aikins 27:17

motion, when you put your talents on display, when you talk to strangers, when you seek out unlike-minded people and opinions and ideas, you know, all of those things, I think they increase the possibility, maybe probability of luck happening. And when you look back on your life, luck plays a role in all our lives. I mean, Daniel Canneman, the great writer, says success is about luck and skill. And he said great success is about a little more skill and a lot more luck. So it's a big part of our lives.

Sinead Donovan 27:48

It is, but but I think what you're saying there is you you can work on increasing the chances of a lucky opportunity. And and with that, Kingsley also maybe the ability to take that lucky opportunity, which can sometimes be a risky decision.

Kingsley Aikins 28:06

Yeah, sure, sure. I mean, I think you know, we hope we can't live in cotton wool sort of situations. We we we have to actually push ourselves out there a bit, and particularly in a world where, you know, lifetime employment and lifetime loyalty are things of the past. I mean, we you we used to think about the escalator model of a career. You join a company, you join the currency company, you do your exams, you move up, and you just keep moving up and up and up to the corner office, a bit like my old man did over 60, 70 something years. But um, but that's not the way things are now.

Sinead Donovan 28:41

No.

Kingsley Aikins 28:41

You're gonna be moving and changing and and and the world's gonna change, and even the events that are going uh geopolitically around the world are gonna have impact in all our lives. So we need to be open to the notion that it'll be, you know, you're gonna be moving sideways, upwards, downwards, you know, it's it's your career is I'd say it's it's not an escalator, it's a jungle gym.

Sinead Donovan 29:04

Absolutely. And and certainly one of the things that we're seeing is that that career longevity, as in to the age that we're working to, is likely

Soft Skills Luck And Career Resilience

Sinead Donovan 29:12

to get longer. So it's gonna it's gonna jump around, but it's gonna go on for longer. So it's it's how to keep that passion alive.

Kingsley Aikins 29:18

Yeah, you know, I as you can see I'm in my third act, you know. Um, and the reality is, you know, 50% of the people who reach 60 now reach 90. So people are gonna have this very interesting period of life after they've finished with the kind of traditional conventional career, but what are they gonna do? What and sometimes they have to do something, but they are gonna live longer than any other generation in history. And so that's an interesting phenomenon.

Sinead Donovan 29:46

Oh my goodness, this is just fascinating. You are giving so many takeaways. I'm still back at the first thing you said, which was the five people you spend the most time with shape you, and or whoever saw that, and I'm thinking in my head, who are those five people, but I'm gonna leave the listeners with that question as well to maybe think about that. So I think this is a good time to take a break with part one of our discussions with Kingsley. Um, however, we're gonna continue recording because there is so much more to unpack, and we will join you again for part two of the chat with Kingsley at the start of the next series of Difference Makers Discuss. Thank you for sticking with us and stay well.