Difference Makers Discuss Live - Charting Success and Sisterhood with Kovini Moodley

From the comforting confines of Shelcross to the empowering platform of Boss Babes of South Africa, Kovini Moodley's journey is one rich with insights and heart.

In a candid conversation, Kovini bares the soul of her transformative path, intertwining tales of mentorship's might and the vibrant prospects within the world of Chartered Accountancy. As we mark the joyous arrival of a newborn in our community, Kovini's narrative reminds us of the profound impact that support systems have on both personal growth and career trajectories.

Subverting the 'PHD Syndrome'—Pull Her Down Syndrome  - Kovini champions a league of women united in collaboration, not competition. The conversation sheds light on the barriers erected by societal conditioning that pit professionals against one another, and Kovini's firsthand experiences with turning authenticity into a superpower in the social media landscape. Amidst the laughter and camaraderie, her wisdom on crafting content with heart speaks volumes to those seeking to make their mark in a world that's constantly scrolling.

The finale of this episode is a testament to the enduring influence of mentors, like Kovini, who are shaping the futures of young chartered accountants. We traverse the terrain of belonging, the fight for equity, and the shared responsibility to combat biases that persist in workplaces. And as we bid farewell, a moment of humor punctuates our chat, humanizing the very essence of podcasting. 

Keep your ears peeled for the upcoming voices that promise to continue stirring the pot of change and inspiration right here on our platform.

Chapters

• 0:00 Conversations With Kavini, Philanthropist and Accountant
• 5:57 Career Milestones and Female Empowerment
• 13:58 The Power of Collaboration and Authenticity
• 21:10 Youth Mentorship
• 27:58 Belonging, Diversity, and Overcoming Biases
• 40:55 Difference Makers Discuss - Next Guests

Transcript

Sinead  0:00  
Hi there, everyone and welcome to the third series in our difference makers discuss

Hi to all Chartered Accountants worldwide who have dialled in to listen to this and I know we are in for a treat as we speak today to Covina Moodley our South African representative. So before we turn the dial to caffine, I do want to introduce you because as I say, we are in for a real treat here. caffine is chartered accountant, a philanthropist, a change activist and the founder of Boss Babes of South Africa, which I am super excited to hear about. She is passionate about utilising her skills, knowledge and academic learnings to uplift and inspire the community of women and to drive transformative change. So with an introduction like that, caffine I can't wait to hear your story. So do you want to try and tell us a little bit about how you got to where you are today, why you maybe chose chartered accountancy, and we can take it from there.

Kovini  1:06  
Absolutely. So I hail from a little town called felker's, south of Dublin in case it in South Africa. I in my early childhood days was shaped towards a very nurturing community, a lot of love. And I attribute that to my success that I have today. I think growing up in a small town, those who have you know what a community driven spirit comes with, you know, having your neighbours come and support you having everyone in the community just aligned to your goals and your growth and what you want to be at a really young age, I had role models that had become Chartered Accountants within the community. And that's where it started for me, I would watch the impact that they would make in terms of mentoring and tutoring accounting students around me and that's sort of how it stemmed in my idea that that's the way it stemmed in my in my in my brain at that point that I wanted to pursue the chartered accounting profession, I found it fascinating, I found that there were different avenues that you could go into as a CSA. And that's really where the idea was born. And I think it just, you know, got got bigger and bigger as I progressed from primary school to high school. And then as I entered high school, I of course, found myself with a lot more mentors around me in the communities that was very inspiring to have people to look up to me and really, you know, help to solidify the dream that I had.

Sinead  2:38  
Brilliant, that's brilliant and, and your your training Covina you trained in a practice or

Kovini  2:46  
so after I completed my high school education, I went on to complete my tertiary So be calm and what we call your CTA honours in order to be able to write your board exams. I was really excited to join Deloitte, South Africa at that point, really, really incredible, I want to say milestone in my career. And you know, I think that is that is what I want to also attribute to being a key success factor in terms of the foundational elements that they were able to help me with the technical expertise. The aim for excellence, which is what Deloitte is all about even today, setting for me, it was really being within that type of environment being more than other young CAS or for chasing the same dream that really helped us to focus on collaboration in terms of our learnings, and getting better at what was we trying to do. And after I completed my articles with Deloitte, I then ventured onto the world of management consulting with Accenture, South Africa. And I absolutely loved that. I think from my earlier days, I knew that I was really big on problem solving, I would often solve problems in the community that we grew up in. I could never resonate with people that went on about complaining about a situation, I would quickly bring them back and say, okay, so guys, are you done? Can we get to a solution? So you know, working in a management consulting firm, a global multinational, like extensions of Africa, it really helped to help me to gain the necessary exposure across more than 22 JSE listed companies. At the time that I spent at Accenture. For Africa, it was four years. I loved the diversity of the type of work. I love the fact that every day was completely different. And it would just be focused on strategy and coming up with solutions. The other thing that I also loved was that in a team, you would have different skill sets together that you would be leading. You would have it you would have HR you would have a host of different skills, even engineers together with C AES, we even had a doctor once that was helping to contribute to the solution. So I think that diversity of different minds coming together to solve problems for these, you know, JSC listed companies was really fulfilling and brought me a lot of contentment. Fantastic.

Sinead  5:16  
And I know dee da dee and I is a passion of yours. And we'll come back to that a little bit later. But but but I completely agree that the when there's such a diverse group there have skill sets, it can it can lead to some some magic career, I'm absolutely dying to hear about Boss Babes of South Africa. I love the name. But tell me tell me about it. When when you when you founded it, why did you fight fight founders and all of that? Yeah, absolutely.

Kovini  5:45  
So we were going into lockdown, and 2020 that was around March of 2020. And I think it was just a lot of fear, there was a lot of uncertainty with my own community, my friends at the CIA's and I thought to myself, you know, we're gonna be locked in indoors, which, by the way, I was not very happy with because I like going out. And I love socialising and, you know, leaving my voice to different causes. And it meant now that we were going to be indoors, and I thought to myself, again, solution driven, you know, what can I do with this extra time? What can I, you know, put my voice forward by skills towards and build a brand or something we women can collaborate, over competing, because I think there's this narrative that they can only be one woman that wins at the top of an organisation. And, you know, the competition sometimes does not drive the best type of human values as well. So I think for me, it was really about lending my voice to the platform. And it really started as a hobby, because I just thought, you know, every single day, I'm going to have four or five hours after my working day completes, and you know, what can I do that I love, and that could also impact the world in a positive way. And that's really how the concept of Boss Babes of South Africa started. And I would go on the main platform was Instagram, and I literally started with five followers. So that was my twin sisters, and three of my cousins who thought out, you know, it's a hobby, let's just support her. But what I didn't realise was just being you know, authentic to myself being true to my my own value system, and using my voice to speak about things that were relevant at that time. And I think the big thing at that time was a COVID pandemic, it was the challenges that people were facing with mental health. And I would go on there and really just share my lived experiences, my life experiences. And little did I know that, you know, that was the start of something really phenomenal that it would grow and grow phenomenally in the past year. And by the end of the year, 2020, I had, you know, tonnes of the leading media houses reach out to me and want to interview and publish about the concept of phosphates or South Africa. In essence, it is a female empowerment grant that focuses on, you know, skill sharing is one component of it. The second is turning pain into power, which is where we go live with. I don't like the word celebrity, but we go live with a really influential woman in South Africa by Instagram Live. And we really helped to shape the narrative around sharing content that is vulnerable, sharing content that speaks to one struggles and how you managed to overcome those struggles. I think we live in a world of social media, we often what we see is just highlight reels, we see airbrushed perfection, and wants to bring more realness to the platform. And that's really where I started turning pain into power as a regular theatre, my platform. And then the third component is really been on, you know, focusing on relatable, relevant daily content. And that is aligned with, you know, a woman chasing big dreams woman being appreciative of the journeys that they have experienced, because everyone comes from a very different background. You know, different levels of support, and that sort of thing. I really wanted to break the barriers around the fact that, irrespective of where you come from your dreams are valid, and it's something that needs to be honoured. And the fourth thing that I've recently launched is mentorship and coaching. And I've been doing that for the last few months. It's brought me a tonne of joy, really focusing on CPAs. But in the new year, I'm looking to expand on that and start to focus more on any skill really, I think with my 14 years of corporate experience, I really feel really to be able to learn my skills, my voice and empower those that are starting off in the professional world.

Sinead  9:53  
Oh my goodness, that's amazing. And there are so many things that I want to drill down on and that they The first one I liked that phrase turning pain, pain into power. So he said, turning pain into power. And you talked about lived experiences. And what was the messaging that was coming out on that just just thought about the importance of mental well being or wash? Yeah,

Kovini  10:17  
I think that this pillar in sharing your stories, your unique Toy Story. I think we live in a world we like I said, Everything is so airbrushed people are sharing the highlight reels. You know, often social media only focuses on you sharing the most amazing things that have happened in your life. But I think the realness comes in us sharing the challenges that we have to overcome the difficult situations that we may have found ourselves and Ben doors that we have to break down to get to where we are today. I think there's just just tonnes of power in us owning that story and owning that narrative and speaking truth to power in our own way. Wow,

Sinead  10:59  
that's great. And I know that as we're talking about, you know, the well being there is a very, very strong well being hub in charge cans worldwide. So it's certainly something that's worthwhile looking into caffine, when we talked earlier in the month, you, you introduced me to an interesting phenomenon, which you called Ph. D syndrome, do you want to do you want to tell the listeners a bit about that.

Kovini  11:26  
So this actually came up in a conversation that friends and I were having, I know, it's really big in state, and they use it a lot. And everyone's very familiar with it. But it's called PhD syndrome. And it's called a Down syndrome. That's actually what it stands for. And I think my own lived experiences, you know, they fell into the boat choses to me, it really has been a very relevant topic, in terms of, you know, coming back to the fact that, as women, we've sort of been conditioned, that we need to compete with each other to the point that it actually becomes unhealthy, or that's been, you know, my experience of observing it. And I really wanted to focus on the fact that we don't need to be pulling each other down, we don't need to be criticising each other. You know, this power, when we stand together, there's power when we collaborate. And most importantly, you know, we're positives of South Africa, there's power in when we come together and share our skills. Because what you're naturally good at maybe you know, something that someone else you'd want to learn from someone else, or vice versa. So we believe there's power in us leveraging our unique strength. And I think what's really sad from my observation is that a lot of people, you know, sort of look to others are going to copy their journey, and they forget to actually look within themselves and find what is my true unique power, because I really believe we all, you know, landed up here on Earth, with a really unique power, unique skill, whatever it may be, I think it's very important sooner rather than later to be able to find what is that? So fuck, as I call it? What is that thing in your life that you're just so naturally good at that people gravitate towards you for it, it feels effortless, it feels like you're in the flow. And that's really what I've been using my platform for one of the things I've been using my platform for you so people to start to reflect, spend time with yourself a picture of who you are. Because for me, knowing who you are, and knowing why you're here on Earth, are probably two of the biggest questions that you want to get on to sooner rather than later.

Sinead  13:34  
So finding your purpose, and I know it is something that is critical for Gen Z. And I know the attractiveness of the profession, it's a big thing for us to show that there is a purpose in our profession and try it, sell it sell it that way. It seems to be what you say there about women competing, and rather than maybe collaborating. Do you see you see that more with females to females? Do you then males? Why do you think that is?

Kovini  14:03  
You know, all I can say is that it could be societal conditioning? I don't really know the answer to it. But I can only speak from my experience as a female. I think that's what that's why their opinion may be a little bit biassed. But it just feels like you know, this notion that, you know, you've probably heard it that women are catty towards each other or when someone new joins, you know, an organisation or environment. They don't kind of get a warm welcome and a warm reception for whatever reason that is, and using my platform is really what I wanted to do to break those barriers to say, you know, if you're feeling a sense of jealousy or envy towards someone, it's probably a lot of internal work that needs to be done and you know, do that because you may find that your skill set low somewhere else, your passion lies somewhere else. And, you know, I really believe that if you're playing from the strength of authentic power, and there really is no competition, but I know that a lot of us are not

Sinead  15:01  
Okay, that's, that's very interesting. I look, I think what you say there is, is very true. And I know there's a, there's quite a famous Irish business woman here in Ireland, and she used the phrase that there's a special place in hell for a female that doesn't help another female in business and, you know, it's, it's, it's it, you know, I certainly think it's up to us to, to reach in and help and help others. You talked there about your platform. And let's just put this into context your following is now I hope we got this right. 27,000 on Instagram and 62,000, on LinkedIn, is that right? Or is it got bigger, so it's actually

Kovini  15:44  
a little bigger. On LinkedIn, it's a combined following up 100,000. So my personal account for Las Vegas Africa. So it's been an incredible journey, you know, I didn't pay a single event, but advertising on LinkedIn, just to put it out there. So completely organic growth. And I think that just speaks to, you know, having a very strong content strategy and knowing your audience. Because if you know, your audience, then you know the type of content that you want to put out there, if you know what's relatable to the woman of South Africa, then you align your content, you know, to put the type of content out there that people value. And that's probably one of the biggest tips that I can leave our audience with today is, irrespective of what profession you're in, make sure that you're finding a way to add value, add value to the lives of others to inspire to motivate, because that's completely free, right? All it takes is a little bit of, you know, wool, a little bit of attention. And I believe that we all can do it, you don't have to do it on a public platform. But you could do it, you know, if you're mentoring young females at work, well, if you're helping other Niebo, you're helping someone in your environment. It doesn't have to be in a very public scale. But I believe that we all have the power to impact at least just one person every single day.

Sinead  17:02  
Fantastic. And I mean that that following is is phenomenal. So well done on that I think what also comes across when you look at your content, and you've talked about it there as being your true authentic self, and I think I think listeners, and audiences really relate to that. They know when people act, they know when people are acting, let's be honest. But But you, you you are a true, authentic person. The social media, I mean, it's obviously been good to you. But have you seen Have you seen some of the downsides of it? I don't want to go on negative on it. But there is there is some downsides to social media. There's not some really not pleasant people out there. Have you had experience with that? Absolutely.

Kovini  17:40  
I was saying to a friend the other day that if I had started my social media journey earlier than I have, I probably would have struggled because I think the world out there is just you know, full of fiction, you scroll through Instagram, everyone's living the life everyone has, you know, is travelling, everyone is doing all these various things. I'm just glad that I started my journey a little bit later, when I was more mature when I've grown a thicker skin. Because I know it is challenging. I've got young nieces and nephews, and they look up to me. But I know that the the challenges sometimes hit them very hard. Because they're starting the world of social media at 16, for example, they've got access to Instagram, and it becomes this comparison trap. You know what someone else has is what they want. And if they don't have it, then they start to struggle. And I think for me, I've just been rather rather fortunate, firstly, by starting a little bit later. And knowing myself knowing myself well enough so that you know, whenever you put yourself out there in the public environment, you are going to get criticism, right, irrespective of what you're doing. We can't get away from that. But I think knowing myself and knowing the value that I stand for is not something that I could ever negotiate about. And that's what I brought to my platform. I want to say that 99.9% of that has been really positive, but you do get the odd comment or the odd direct message that comes in and you know, someone's got an alternative opinion. I think it's just about the way you receive that. The way it said. And you know, I'm all about taking constructive criticism of that something that is coming from that. But it was just downright. If I could say it's just downright right. You want to say something just to be noticed, then it's not something that I'm going to invest my energy and my time on.

Sinead  19:42  
I think that's a really, really powerful statement because it is it is so easy to focus on the negatives. It really is and as you say 99.9% are lovely comments, but it's very easy to focus on that point. 1% But if listeners take one thing from this podcast, it's maybe that at You know, try try and focus on the positives and ignore the ignore the nasty comments. But it's, it's hard.

Kovini  20:06  
It is hard. And like I say, for the youth of today, I can just imagine how much more difficult it is for them starting this journey and having icons having influences having, you know, these names that they are looking up to. Yeah, I think I've also just wanted to, to help the youth of South African help my mentees, to find people that you follow that actually inspire you. If you're following someone and the content is draining you you feel worse about your own life after looking at the content, then that shouldn't be something that you want to follow. And I think the good thing with Instagram is you have the power to decide what you want to give you energy to what you want to follow what type of content you want to consume. And I think if you focus on that principle, then you know that the ball is in your court in terms of the way you curate what it is you're looking at.

Sinead  21:02  
You touch there on mentees. And and you mentioned that I think that the fourth pillar or the fifth pillar in Boss Babes is about men mentorship, and coaching. what's your what's your vision on that? Cavani? Are you going to match people or how's it going to work,

Kovini  21:17  
I have started to match a few people. At the moment, I've got 11 Young chartered accountants that have entered the professional space, and I mentor them. So we have zoom call, we have one on one calls, we have been sessions, whatever it is that they need, I've been supporting them. This has been for the last two years. And I think it's just another way that I'm able to give back another way that I'm able to use my skills and experience in a more professional aspect to kind of develop them and help them to be corporate really, I think that's definitely something that a lot of young professionals need to do, you're going in with a technical experience, you're going in with great qualifications. You know, you've got it all. But I think sometimes you need to sort of adjust to environments when you enter there. And that's sort of what my coaching and mentorship has been about, it's really been about sharing my own experiences in terms of how I manage to manoeuvre through that landscape. And I think after six to 12 months, you know, within an environment, you have a better feeling as to whether that particular environment is aligned with your value system or not. So I think it's really been very valuable for them. And I think also learn a lot from you know, the younger generation when they share their insights with me in the way that they think it's completely different to us, and I think is also very futuristic, which I love. I love that the fact that the entering an organisation at 22. And they already got a vision for themselves, but 25 or 2830, these are the things they've defined for themselves. I can't say that I've done that various reasons. But that's really, you know, the generation that we are exposed to these days, it's not necessarily a bad thing. I think it's just, it's so great to be intentional and to have purpose around where you want to be what your growth plan looks like. And I think this also limited China's for sharing that they really opened about, you know, having those conversations with the leaders. So I think it's been an incredible two years for me lending my voice and being able to shape these young souls. It's definitely brought me a tonne of experience. But as going into 2024, I want to start to leverage in some of the other boss States of Africa. So we've got doctors, pilots, lawyers. And I think that for the young professionals entering that space, I'd love to be able to do that match and put them in touch with someone who's been a club to help them with their particular industry. Fantastic.

Sinead  23:52  
That's great. And I completely agree with you. I work a lot with the next gen at the moment. It's kind of my theme for my presidential year, and I am just blown away by their, their confidence. But But also, I know this sounds contradictory, but their humility. I mean, they know they know where they want to go to. And they're not shy about saying it, but they do it in a in a nice in a nice, professional way. So I think we have so much to learn from the next gen. So I think that's a lovely, a lovely message to send. Ed and I covenient we could talk about it for hours. But what if forever if I was to say to you, you know, what is maybe your biggest concern in this space? Or what's your biggest wish in this space? What would it be for business for employers for anyone?

Kovini  24:43  
Yeah, you know, I think having this platform has just given me tonnes of insight into what women are experiencing on a day to day basis. And I think when we talk about diversity, equity and inclusion, equality i It's very important But I think there needs to be greater conversation. And I think they need to be more transparency around the weight fully implemented. And I notice, you know, everyone talks about it. But I think for me, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. So for me, it is really about, you know, you can have diversity, equity inclusion. But the fundamental community outcome, for me, is about belonging, I think we don't talk about belonging enough, right? So belonging is a few, you know, enter a particular space or party, wherever you may be belonging for me is that they're actually going to be playing your music, they're not just going to have a seat at the table, the music that they're going to play for you is that they have researched what you like and putting it out there. And then that contributes to say, an analogy around belonging. I think for me, the days of having a seat at the table, it's great. But coming, what that seat at the table needs to be. The recognition needs to be the reward, and most importantly, for my needs to be able to utilise your phone at the point of having a seat at the table. And you know, when you say something when you bring an alternate view, which is the whole point of view being there, that it's disregarded or taken seriously, I think I think that is the true, you know, element of diversity. Can everyone on the table bring forward a unique perspective? And can that perspective be, you know, appreciated, considered, even if it's not chosen? Can it be appreciated conservatives, and valued I think, for me, that is the true essence of when we talk about diversity, equity, inclusion, and ultimately feeling like when you enter a space or an environment, that you actually belong, and people make you feel welcome enough to belong there.

Sinead  27:02  
And I'm presuming that you believe that if that is not the case, or if we witnessed, you know, people not doing that along the way, it's incumbent on us to speak up and probably particularly the leaders to speak up and say, it's not it's not right, it's not appropriate.

Kovini  27:16  
Absolutely. I think being a bystander in certain cases is probably like the worst thing that you can do for yourself. You know, it is it doesn't represent the entire profession. Well, I can put it back to 18. Or by standard to bullying, for example, harassment not being treated feeling pay parity. All these unfortunately, real challenges that a woman or South Africa face. And I think for me, having a woman firstly speak up on behalf of themselves. And then having people that support that conversation is really important. Because often, if you're the only one speaking up about a particular challenge or situation or concern, and then you know, you could be faced with being victimised or people labelling you as a problem, child, whatever the case is, I think it's very important to have people that are there to support your your sort of angle of what you're trying to raise. Because if you don't raise these issues, if you don't bring it out, if you don't start having real conversations, or authentic conversations about it. Personally, from my experience, I think it's very difficult to actually drive, that transformative change that I keep speaking about, you'll be able to have it on paper, you'll be able to have it, you know, publicise that you won't be able to actually be you can feel it when you work in a particular

environment. Yeah. Yeah. And I also know from talking to you earlier, that you, you'd have quite strong views on unconscious bias is, is that right? And the impact that that has, and how we can maybe change that. Talk to me a bit about that, and what you've witnessed?

Sinead  28:58  
Yeah, I think there's just a lot of narratives, sometimes when you know, a woman and leadership positions, and you consider it to be weak, or the minute you you speak up and you consider it to be a problem, or you know, too much is the stereotype of the angry black woman. I don't know if you heard about it. But when you speak up as a woman of colour, sometimes not received in the right way it becomes about your tone, it's what they reflect to his tone policing, it becomes about the tone of what you're saying, rather than the actual content of what you find to raise it's almost like a diversion away from what we should actually be addressing and speaking up on. So I think for me, that's really important when we talk about you know, unconscious bias because I think there's still a lot of learning that needs to happen in this face. And you know, the onus lies on each leader irrespective of what industry you in, to be able to do that work. You know, there are fantastic consulting companies, you know, in kind Vienna worldwide as well, that offer this that really break it down so that you know that, you know, these are the following things that I should not be saying these are the following, you know, terminology that I should not be saying, just in my own lived experience, it just feels like, I don't know, if it's intentional or unintentional, it's hard to say. But yeah, there's a lot of things that leave me sometimes questioning when someone says something to me to listen to understand the repercussions of what they're saying, and the way it may be, you know, interpreted by me. So I think there is learning that needs to happen. But the for the learning part needs to be acknowledgment. Because if you don't acknowledge something, it's very hard for you to then go and, you know, take action, get the training, bring in the various consulting firms here in South Africa, we've got a fantastic consulting firm called mandate philosophy, and they really focus on diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging training, they do an incredible job of experience and a few times in my career, and yeah, I mean, there's help available it is that to be I guess, open and receptive to want to learn. Because I think that, that that contributes to inclusiveness, saying the right thing, saying the right things in context, contributes to inclusive environment and ultimately, you know, contributes towards what we call psychological safety.

Kovini  31:25  
Yeah, yeah. It's outdoors. And I think there does, I think your point of people need to be open to the training is really true, because I did a bit of unconscious bias training in my firm and and I kind of thought, Oh, no conscious bias. I'm so on top of this. We all do. I was shocked. I was shocked at my results. And it really made me focus on okay, I've now got to, to work on this and to act on it. But but so yeah, everyone needs to be open to it and and take the learnings, as they as they come. And look, just to round off this topic. There is another hope I want to direct our listeners to it is the Ed and I have been charged accountants worldwide. And I think there's you know, there's some really good information that sits on on that help. So Kabini, as you as you as you look forward, you've got so much under your belt you've achieved so much, but I have no doubt that there is future plans, future items you want to to develop. Can you talk a little bit about some of your some of your plans for the go forward? Absolutely.

Sinead  32:31  
So in 2024 really want to focus more on my podcast that was recently launched, it's called Kobe speaks. We have just completed recording season one, and we'll put up all the social media, hashtags and the highlights as soon as it is available, it goes live. The other thing that we want to focus on is amplifying the voices that come through to the Boss Babes of South Africa platform, I think it's really important to have diverse views coming forward and for everyone to be able to lend their voice to transformative conversations, because that's really what it's all about. I really see 2024 being the year of further transformation, I think in 2023, I've had the opportunity to speak to my own power. And I definitely see 20 twin for being a year of alignment, a year of alignment that I want to be able to align with environments with people projects, I really want to align with projects that are closely linked to my own purpose and passion. And that's really where my focus will be for 2020.

Fantastic. Well, I have no doubt that whatever you put your mind to convenient you will be an absolute success. You are a powerhouse. You are a joy to talk to a breath of fresh air, keep doing what you're doing, keep advocating for, for women, for ethnic minorities for everyone. And I wish you the very best of luck in your future. And thank you so much for taking time to talk to us today.

Kovini  34:09  
Such a pleasure. Thank you, Sinead. Thank you everybody. It's been an honour to be featured here and I really hope to hear from the community as well. I really hope that you will connect with me on Instagram or LinkedIn at COVID remotely. We also have a website called www that boss staves off South Africa at a theatre city. You can register on the and be a part of our newsletter but I'd really love to have conversations post this and be able to authentically connect with the CA's worldwide

Sinead  34:41  
thanks a million Well you heard that request direct from Covina. So log on to those websites and engage and thank you so much for joining us again for the third in the series of difference makers discuss. We will be putting out details of our of our next guests. And thanks you very much for sticking with us. caffine Thank you very much. Goodbye. Good day. Good evening wherever only one is in the world.

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